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Welcome to /liberty/. This board is home to all discussion of libertarianism and economics.

BOARD RULES
1. Adhere to global rules.
2. Keep discussion on-topic: economics, politics, memes.
3. Low-quality posts will be deleted.
4. Namefagging will get you banned.
5. /liberty/ is a SFW board. Spoiler all NSFW content.

Complementary helicopter rides are available for visiting lefties.

STATUS OF ID FUNCTIONS - Apparently, IDs are not functioning properly due to "ISP fuckery" and this may or may not mean that different posters can share the same ID. Also, GeoFlags aren't working. I have contacted site administration and been informed that there is no way to retroactively wipe IDs. Until these 2 issues are resolved, we will have to make do with sus ID fuckery.
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>>663
>If the state is abolished, then does that mean I have to give up all of my belonging that I won at police auctions?
It is the same rules for all stolen property. If the legitimate owner can prove they are the rightful owner then give it back. This does entitle you to extract compensation from the pigs who organized the auction in the first place though
>something something just following orders
is not a valid legal defense in any sane justice system.
>>585
After careful consideration, I have decided to allow this. This is disabled by default, I wondered if there was a reason for this but this did not warrant contacting site administration.
Replies: >>697
>>696
It doesn't matter the board is completely dead at this point. I spent a long time making that Hoppe vs Walter Block thread only for it to get nuked because of a soyjak. You should just delete this board instead of hoping that people will forget how dumb and childish zzz mods are and come back.
Replies: >>725
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Do chemtrails violate the NAP?
>>697
That sucks man.

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 Who do you want to win? Are you neutral? I'm sure no one here backs Harris, but the Project 2025/Vance thing has hurt Trump's momentum a lot.
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>>808
Why are you bragging about having a gun if you have no idea what to use it for? Sounds like a larp to me.
>>790
>Stop typing and use your guns then you fucking larp.
I will use them on anybody who tries to infringe on my freedom or property.
You're so bad at this I'm just going to do both sides of the discussion now.
trumpfags are retards kwab
>>778
>That's like saying both candidates supported the Iraq war. If they diverge on future policies then that is what you should be focusing on.
These fuckers killed my grandmother and my livelihood.  In what world do you think I could vote for them?  My mind boils with rage when I think about fuckers who supported the covid bullshit to the point that it's made it extremely difficult for me to continue functioning in polite society.
Replies: >>813
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>>812

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Seemed okay when I first browsed it a few months back but since the elections started gearing up, the culture war BS is seeming to amplify

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What did you guys think of the interview.  Some various thoughts of mine:
1 - The MSM's response and spin is so over-the-top it's both insulting and hilarious.  It's also really interesting what they don't report on.  E.g., the BBC doesn't report about the claim that Boris stopped the peace talks.  The German DW doesn't talk about Putin saying that he thinks he's fighting the U.S. _and Germany_--he names those two countries in particular.  They also make it sound like Tucker made Putin look like a saint and was unprofessional when in fact...
2 - I think this interview made Putin look terrible.  Like on the level of "I'm surprised both Putin and the Kremlin were completely O.K. with this, what the fuck?"  I was expecting more of a propaganda spin for their Ukraine war.  Instead, it kind of makes me root for Ukraine more.
3 - Man, the first half of the interview is a real slog, picrel.  However, it makes it plainly evident that Putin really honestly believes in irredentist foreign policy.  It surprised the shit out of me since I kind of thought we left that behind in the previous century.  This was the biggest takeaway for me.
4 - He's clear that the war was for Black Sea access.
5 - He doesn't see the U.S. as the most powerful country anymore, he sees China as the most powerful country now and therefore is just seeing what he's doing as moving into their alliance block.  He talks about Chinese trade and waning U.S. influence to a surprising extent that it feels like he do
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>>686
>Since you use MAGA as an insult 
>you agree that most american presidents do not put america first
Where did this happen?
Dude, I think you're having an argument with an imaginary person.  That or you're legitimately schizophrenic.
Also, you still aren't replying to his arguments.  But that kind of makes sense given how you're having make-believe arguments.
Replies: >>730
>>723
>Where did this happen?
In >>512. You can't have it both ways if Trump is the nationalist then the politicians who hate Trump and hate America First and have been conducting America's wars for the past 30 years are not nationalists. Your argument that nationalism = war is completely debunked. If anything the fact that they have nothing but contempt for the American working class probably makes it easier for them to steal the people's wealth and turn it into craters in the desert.

>you still aren't replying to his arguments
What arguments? You're digging up a 6 month old thread here. If you want to move forward in good faith then why don't you restate these arguments you think are so good.
Replies: >>756
>>730
>In >>512.
That's not me, dude.
>If you want to move forward in good faith then why don't you restate these arguments you think are so good.
Why?  You never had good faith.
Replies: >>779
>>560
Yanukovych wasn't elected in a free and fair election.  The Russian FSB stuffed the ballot boxes, and when people complained, he ordered the army and the police to shoot them.  He must never have been in ROTC, because one of the first things they teach you about leadership is:  never give an order unless you're sure it's going to be obeyed.  The military and the cops joined with the people and Yanukovych had to flee back to his sugar daddy Vladdie back in Moscow, and ten years later he's still there, begging Pooty Poot to give him cummies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence) <-- Read this article, and realize that it doesn't just happen to the CIA.  Pooty Poot's goon squad very clumsily rigged an election in a country that has ample historical reason to fear and hate Russians.  They did a poor job of it and everyone noticed.  There were consequences.
>> 765
>Yanukovych wasn't elected in a free and fair election.  The Russian FSB stuffed the ballot boxes,
I don't see any evidence of that. We already went through this with Trump and the Russia Gate hoax. Just because the "wrong" person won an election doesn't mean <USA_ENEMY> was involved.

>when people complained
Ukraine is a big country. Most of his support was in the east and rural areas. The people who "complained" were westernized metropolitan liberals in Kiev. That's like saying any Republican victory must be illegitimate because Democrat voters protested in New York.
https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/02/23/coup-in-kiev/
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2015/03/23/why-ron-paul-is-right-about-ukraine/

>Yanukovych wasn't elected in a free and fair election
Zanelski was the one who was not voted by the people. He was installed as a western puppet. US officials literally picked out his cabinet for him on a phone call. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIvRljAaNgg

>ten years later he's still there, begging Pooty Poot to give him cummies.
This is strangely emotional language to use. His only crime was refusing to let Ukraine join NATO. What he wanted was to remain neutral and not let his country get raped in a proxy war between two superpowers. Unfortunately for Ukraine he failed. And the death toll speaks for itself, an entire generation of Ukrainian men wiped out just so NATO countries can sell some weapons and place their nuclear missiles a few miles closer to moscow. Keep in mind Putin was ready to negotiate at any time, it was Boris Johnson who torpedoed the first peace negotiations and various NATO representatives after that, just to keep the war going.

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License Plate Surveillance, Courtesy of Your Homeowners Association

Flock Safety works with police to market scanners to hundreds of private community groups — which have no privacy safeguards.

At a city council meeting in June 2021, Mayor Thomas Kilgore, of Lakeway, Texas, made an announcement that confused his community.

“I believe it is my duty to inform you that a surveillance system has been installed in the city of Lakeway,” he told the perplexed crowd.

Kilgore was referring to a system consisting of eight license plate readers, installed by the private company Flock Safety, that was tracking cars on both private and public roads. Despite being in place for six months, no one had told residents that they were being watched. Kilgore himself had just recently learned of the cameras.

“We find ourselves with a surveillance system,” he said, “with no information and no policies, procedures, or protections.”

The deal to install the cameras had not been approved by the city government’s executive branch.

Instead, the Rough Hollow Homeowners Association, a nongovernment entity, and the Lakeway police chief had signed off on the deal in January 2021, giving police access to residents’ footage. By the time of the June city council meeting, the surveillance system had notified the police department over a dozen times.
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Samsung Requires Independent Repair Shops to Share Customer Data, Snitch on People Who Use Aftermarket Parts, Leaked Contract Shows
https://www.404media.co/samsung-requires-independent-repair-shops-to-share-customer-data-snitch-on-people-who-use-aftermarket-parts-leaked-contract-shows/

In exchange for selling them repair parts, Samsung requires independent repair shops to give Samsung the name, contact information, phone identifier, and customer complaint details of everyone who gets their phone repaired at these shops, according to a contract obtained by 404 Media. Stunningly, it also requires these nominally independent shops to “immediately disassemble” any phones that customers have brought them that have been previously repaired with aftermarket or third-party parts and to “immediately notify” Samsung that the customer has used third-party parts.

"Company shall immediately disassemble all products that are created or assembled out of, comprised of, or that contain any Service Parts not purchased from Samsung,” a section of the agreement reads. “And shall immediately notify Samsung in writing of the details and circumstances of any unauthorized use or misappropriation of any Service Part for any purpose other than pursuant to this Agreement. Samsung may terminate this Agreement if these terms are violated."

The contract also requires the “daily” uploading of details of each and every repair that an independent company does into a Samsung database called G-SPN “at the time of each repair,” which includes the customer’s address, email address, phone number, details about what is wrong with their phone, their phone’s warranty status, details of the customer’s complaint, and the device’s IMEI number, which is a unique device identifier. 

...

Aaron Perzanowski, a personal property law expert and professor at the University of Michigan Law School, told me “Most consumers would be very surprised to learn that their personal information and details about their devices are being shared with the manufacturer. And I doubt there is any meaningful disclosure of or consent to sharing that data. So this looks like a substantial and unexpected invasion of consumer privacy.”

The contract shows the incredible level of control that Samsung has over “independent” repair shops, which need to sign this agreement to get repair parts from Samsung. Signing this contract does not even make a repair shop an “authorized” repair center, which is a distinction that requires shop owners to jump through even more hoops.

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It would be easy to think that the police officer is a figure who has existed since the beginning of civilization. That’s the idea on display in the proclamation from President John F. Kennedy on the dedication of the week of May 15 as “National Police Week,” in which he noted that law-enforcement officers had been protecting Americans since the nation’s birth.

In fact, the U.S. police force is a relatively modern invention, sparked by changing notions of public order, driven in turn by economics and politics, according to Gary Potter, a crime historian at Eastern Kentucky University.

Policing in Colonial America had been very informal, based on a for-profit, privately funded system that employed people part-time. Towns also commonly relied on a “night watch” in which volunteers signed up for a certain day and time, mostly to look out for fellow colonists engaging in prostitution or gambling. (Boston started one in 1636, New York followed in 1658 and Philadelphia created one in 1700.) But that system wasn’t very efficient because the watchmen often slept and drank while on duty, and there were people who were put on watch duty as a form of punishment.

Night-watch officers were supervised by constables, but that wasn’t exactly a highly sought-after job, either. Early policemen “didn’t want to wear badges because these guys had bad reputations to begin with, and they didn’t want to be identified as people that other people didn’t like,” says Potter. When localities tried compulsory service, “if you were rich enough, you paid someone to do it for you — ironically, a criminal or a community thug.”

As the nation grew, however, different regions made use of different policing systems.

In cities, increasing urbanization rendered the night-watch system completely useless as communities got too big. The first publicly funded, organized police force with officers on duty full-time was created in Boston in 1838. Boston was a large shipping commercial center, and businesses had been hiring people to protect their property and safeguard the transport of goods from the port of Boston to other places, says Potter. These merchants came up with a way to save money by transferring to the cost of maintaining a police force to citizens by arguing that it was for the “collective good.”

In the South, however, the economics that drove the creation of police forces were centered not on the protection of shipping interests but on the preservation of the slavery system. Some of the primary policing institutions there were the slave patrols tasked with chasing down runaways and preventing slave revolts, Potter says; the first formal slave patrol had been created in the Carolina colonies in 1704. During the Civil War, the military became the primary form of law enforcement in the South, but during Reconstruction, many local sheriffs functioned in a way analogous to the earlier slave patrols, enforcing segregation and the disenfranchisement of freed slaves.

In general, throughout the 19th century and beyond, the definition of public order — that which the police officer was charged with maintaining — depended whom was asked.
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Disney+ terms prevent Disney World food allergy wrongful death lawsuit, attorneys claim

Amy Tangsuan, an NYU Langone doctor from Plainview, was vigilant when she dined out, said Sabrina Martini, her best friend. Martini added Tangsuan's severe dairy and nut allergy was always communicated.

"It would not only be her who would make the staff aware, but it would be whoever was with her and we would reiterate," Martini said.

According to her husband's lawsuit, at the Disney Springs restaurant Raglan Road in October, "The waiter guaranteed certain foods could be made allergen-free and confirmed several more times."

Tangsuan died soon after from "anaphylaxis due to elevated levels of dairy and nuts in her system."

Her cousin, attorney Peter Giattino, calls Disney's response shocking and absurd. Because Tangsuan's husband, Jeffrey Piccolo, signed up for Disney+ years earlier, he signed away his rights to sue. Disney cites fine print in the agreement, which requires users to arbitrate all disputes with the company.

"She was stolen from him, and now, in effect, what Disney is doing is trying to steal his day in court and it's a fundamental right we all have," Giattino said.

Disney claims Piccolo also okayed a similar agreement when he bought Epcot tickets online.
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>>52
>They then have a financial incentive to make sure nothing does happen to you.
Couldn't they just come up with some really stupid definitions of something "happening" to you to avoid paying up?
Replies: >>777
>>772
>Couldn't they just come up with some really stupid definitions of something "happening" to you to avoid paying up?
Setting aside whatever 3rd party courts or arbitration services might exist. If an insurance company gets a reputation for not honoring their policies then nobody will buy their policies and they will go broke.

And this is not a theoretical point, for hundreds of years Lloyds of London has provided global maritime insurance and their policy is to always pay up without a fuss even though there is no legal obligation to do so because that's what leads to the most profit in the long run.
https://www.ft.com/content/c44306cc-6057-4ca3-923d-d67d096765f6

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How is this as an intro?

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What is /liberty/'s ideal currency? Is it gold, silver, or perhaps something else all together? What does /liberty/ think of 1930's germany tying their money to labor? Is barter superior to currency?
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>>248
Silver isn't really that high. It was a bit higher when I first started buying in summer 2022. But I'm still waiting for a dip, of course.
Gold is all-time high now, but I doubt it'll go down much at this point. It's buying season in asia, and in a few months banks are going to start failing again. It's been almost a year since SVB, and the mechanisms they put in place are going to expire soon.
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>>268
It's pretty high right now. It's a little less than $30 bucks an ounce. I want to buy gold once it drops to less than 2k an ounce but I don't know how realistic that is. Do you think we'll ever seen gold drop below $2000? One day, I'd like to own at least 5 ounces of gold.
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>>692
>Do you think we'll ever seen gold drop below $2000? 
There will never be negative inflation. Fiat is only going in one direction and that's down.
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Gold hit $2,500 an ounce. Is this a sign of even more incoming economic troubles?
Why Did the World Choose a Gold Standard Instead of a Silver Standard?
https://mises.org/mises-wire/why-did-world-choose-gold-standard-instead-silver-standard

Among those who support the end of government fiat money, it’s not uncommon to hear and see claims that gold is “the best money” or “natural money” or the only substance that’s really suited to be commodity money. In many of these cases, when they say “gold” they mean gold, and not silver, platinum, or any other precious metal.

Naturally, one can expect to encounter these claims among those who have made a living out of promoting gold and gold-related investments for commercial purposes.

For example, consider Nathan Lewis’s 2020 article at Forbes titled “Gold Has Always Been the Best Money.” Lewis contends that gold and not silver is obviously the best money and that its adoption as the metal behind the nineteenth-century gold standard was more or less inevitable and based on the alleged intrinsic superiority of gold as money. He writes:

< In the late 19th century, a final decision had to be made between gold and silver. People chose gold; and silver, which had for thousands of years traded in a stable ratio with gold, lost its monetary quality and became volatile.

Lewis presents this as an event that was as natural as people choosing to ride in automobiles rather than on the backs of donkeys. Choosing gold over silver is progress, just like getting rid of the horse and buggy!

Lewis insists that “a final decision had to be made” between gold and silver and that “people” chose gold.

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https://mises.org/mises-wire/what-project-2025-says-about-fed

> We should just remove the cancer and replace it with nothing.
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>>724
>Instead, the Heritage Foundation is made up of so many completely mentally incompetent, Don Knotts throwback, idiotic, blind flag-waving, Polyanna Boomers that they literally don't understand that their own government is cucking them.
They are the intellectual class. Their job is to mold opinion for the ruling class. Their skills (lying and manipulating people) have no relevance in the free market, without their cushy thinktank jobs they would be flipping burgers at mcdonalds. They're actually more cucked than you think they are.
https://mises.org/online-book/new-liberty-libertarian-manifesto/chapter-3-state/state-and-intellectuals
Replies: >>762
>>724
>say NOTHING about Big Tech censorship
As soon as mature members of society habitually express acceptance or even advocate egalitarian sentiments, whether in the form of democracy (majority rule) or of communism, it becomes essential that other members, and in particular the natural social elites, be prepared to act decisively and, in the case of continued nonconformity, exclude and ultimately expel these members from society. In a covenant concluded among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as a right to free (unlimited) speech exists, not even to unlimited speech on one's own tenant-property. One may say innumerable things and promote almost any idea under the sun, but naturally no one is permitted to advocate ideas contrary to the very purpose of the covenant of preserving and protecting private property, such as democracy and communism. There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They—the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such 
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Replies: >>757
Interesting findings: 

Seeing Ron Paul/Mises/libertarian forums begin to criticize the GOP a lot more and now Vance is seen as a Thiel pick. I think we're coming back, bros. 

https://mises.org/mises-wire/republicans-declare-war-american-economy
>>736
Fuck off with your whataboutism tuquoque fallacy bullshit.
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>>732
>Their skills (lying and manipulating people) have no relevance in the free market
It's called "marketing."  It must be good because it has "market" right there in the name.

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Have any of the cryptoanarchists thought up any solutions to the problem of fedposting?

Specifically the following playbook:
>Forum with actual freeze peach.
>Feds want to shut it down.
>Feds post cp on it.
>Feds claim, "You're hosting cp."
>No way to show that they've been framed.
>"Give us backend access to spam it the fuck with fedposting bots, or get shut down."
>Those that don't have a tor site get shut down.
>Those that do have a tor site, "Fuck off, we're resistant to censorship."
>Feds spam the everloving fuck out of the board--usually with cp anyways
>Have to put up a captcha.
>"Give us backend access or we shut down the captcha provider :)."
>Only freeze peach forums left are those with like 3 users who post every few months.
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>>684
4chan gets flooded with CP on a pretty regular basis, especially /trash/, which has no jannies.  It's been going on for years.  It doesn't help that if you report it there's about a 50-50 chance that one of the paint-huffing mongoloids gookmoot brought in from Plebbit to replace m00t's old mods will decide to ban you instead for "false reporting."  I'm banned there right now.

A smaller Kusaba X board I used to frequent got flooded with CP so much over the course of 2022 that the owner shut it down completely at the end of the year, because he and the mod team just couldn't keep up.  It was coming in 24 hours a day, hundreds, sometimes thousands of posts an hour, and it wasn't just links to CP sites, either.  It was actual images.  The thumbnails looked sufficiently sus to me that I wasn't clicking on that shit, nigga.  The owner said later that he tried to report it to the FBI, Interpol, RCMP, Australian Federal Police, and everybody else he thought might be interested, complete with server logs, originating IP addresses for the posts, and so on, and all just stonewalled him and said "oi wot's all this then? hackers, eh? nuffin we can do 4u m8ey, roight lads?" I have no proof, of course, that someone in some Five Eyes member nation had a hard-on for him personally and used state resources to flood his little hobby imageboard, that probably had fewer than one thousand individual total users over the fifte
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>>752
It's very obviously a way that they keep small sites not under their thumb from ever growing.  Kind of sad it's not mentioned more often.
Replies: >>758
>>754
>Kind of sad it's not mentioned more often.
It is common knowledge or at least it was since the 8ch days, it just happens and it is the preferred tool for many agents like actual honest ceepee salesmen, glownigras and troll anarchists
Replies: >>759
>>758
I sometimes read those old Usenet cryptoanarchist posts.  Full of hopes and dreams.  I sometimes daydream about someone posting:

"Hey guys, great idea; but what if the feds just flood your boards with ceepee?"

I wonder how those visionaries would've responded.
>>752
If law enforcement is out to get you all they have to do is raid your house and take away all your electronic devices while they "investigate". Boom, no more website no more problem. The fact that it never happened is proof that is it not the feds who are harassing your friend.

Why did libertarianism die so fucking hard since '08?
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>>709
I never wrote that I supported "fascism". I wrote that I'd support anything which would favor me. That being said, a system which puts inherent value on the lives of a certain group of people (the kin, tribe, or race) would put me in a privileged position (provided I was of that clan, of course). I'm not exactly sure what you think fascism is, but some people link ethno-nationalism and fascism so in that case it would be preferable to a market free-for-all. I think monarchy is the superior system, what with the King being first among kin and therefore accountable to his people. I reckon things might have gone better if the nation began with the maligned "King George the First".
Replies: >>711 >>751
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>>707
>If "nature" selects against me, then I would happily support anything "unnatural" which would select in my favor instead. 
Natural selection is more about the environment. Individuals and groups who thrive best in a given environment will have more offspring and those who don't thrive will slip out of the genepool.

As human civilization gets more sophisticated the natural environment isn't as important as the environment we create for ourselves. Air conditioning means that having dark skin in hot climates is not much of an impact on natural selection anymore.

>>710
>some people link ethno-nationalism and fascism so in that case it would be preferable to a market free-for-all
That's a false dichotomy, you don't have to choose between socialism or open boarders you can reject both.

>I think monarchy is the superior system, what with the King being first among kin and therefore accountable to his people.
You already have a king how is that working out for you.

>>709
>Fascism is not going to put you into a position of power, lmao.
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Replies: >>713
>>711
Considering that the Romans were infested with Jews you have to go back to pre-Roman era to argue about such a thing. Did the Greeks attack Greeks? They had  slaves, yes, but that's called being a minimum wage worker today. You were free to save up and buy a slave of your own. That's capitalism. Then shit like ((( Abraham ))) lincoln happen and Queen Victoria banning brothels and such and society ends up mega gay. My point being that the Greeks didn't try to take over the world. The Persian Empire tried it before the Romans did also so you cant call whites inherently tyrannical. You can always blame the Jews for senseless war (for profit). Simple as a bank forcing a country into being bankrupt, they do what? Give a loan to make war machines to go get spoils of war. You do know about the banks and the jews and war, right?
>>658
With two currencies it'd not have been their paradise.
>>710
>I never wrote that I supported "fascism".
You are arguing with lolberts.  They have been taught to call anything they dislike "fascism."  They use the word almost as freely as Antifa does.  You're not allowed to notice how many names ending with -berg, -stein, -baum, and -blatt you find in lists of lolbertarian and Marxist "thinkers."

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