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Welcome to /liberty/. This board is home to all discussion of libertarianism and economics.

BOARD RULES
1. Adhere to global rules.
2. Keep discussion on-topic: economics, politics, memes.
3. Low-quality posts will be deleted.
4. Namefagging will get you banned.
5. /liberty/ is a SFW board. Spoiler all NSFW content.

Complementary helicopter rides are available for visiting lefties.

STATUS OF ID FUNCTIONS - Apparently, IDs are not functioning properly due to "ISP fuckery" and this may or may not mean that different posters can share the same ID. Also, GeoFlags aren't working. I have contacted site administration and been informed that there is no way to retroactively wipe IDs. Until these 2 issues are resolved, we will have to make do with sus ID fuckery.
Last edited by Hidden User
97 replies and 35 files omitted. View the full thread
>>511
Mod abused his power because a post hurt his feelings. This is why there's no such thing as a good imageboard.
Replies: >>581
Either that or he made a mistake and is embarrassed to admit it.
Replies: >>581
>>550
>>551
Isn't there an archive of it?
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Does board owner have the ability to enable pdf uploads? It would be nice to post books and papers instead of just telling people to find it themselves.
>>511
>>534
If posts go missing it might be because it had a soyjak meme attached. The zzz admin is blindly deleting all posts with soyjaks attached regardless on content.

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Replies: >>640
>>636 (OP) 
>What's the libertarian answer to unrestricted internet access for 5 year olds?
It is the parents/guardian's responsibility to raise their own children.
>internet
what's the libertarian answer to people destroying any internet infrastructure that isn't on private property? will everyone have a big tower with a transmitter and receiver in their yard to connect like with HAM radio?

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Which has had a bigger impact on ending slavery
1 - The abolitionist movement
OR
2 - The industrial revolution
?
Which has had a bigger impact on limiting modern day inflation
1 - Ron Paul's End the FED movement
OR
2 - Bitcoin
?
Concluding leading question:  which matters more for furthering libertarianism
1 - Ideas
OR
2 - Technology
?
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>>619
>That's why leftists ignore banks
Go to a /leftpol/ or reddit and ask them what they think about banks or the fed. They'll say something like get lost lolbert corporations are the only enemy.
Replies: >>626
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>>624
>corporations are the only enemy.
Ask them what they think about the big pharma covid vax conspiracy.
Replies: >>641
What libertarians actually do to become ungovernable?
Replies: >>641
The elites have turned everyone into criminals, liars, hypocrites, and cowards.

The only good thing about living in a police state is that no one can take the moral high ground on anything.
>>626
>Ask them what they think about the big pharma covid vax conspiracy.
They say it was a government project with "scientific" oversight therefor shutup and take your boosters nazi.

>>628
>What libertarians actually do to become ungovernable?
https://medium.com/@Kallman/a-21st-century-introduction-to-agorism-5dc69b54d79f

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How would the NAP deal with noise complaints?
Replies: >>638
>>637 (OP) 
I approve this soyjak because it's making fun of commies.
Not going to effort post a response because the op has a soyjak so the whole thread will probably get deleted by some retarded crybaby zzz mod.

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Replies: >>631
>>629 (OP) 
Well, Rothbard didn't think animals have rights. But if they do have rights, then it follows logically that one would be allowed to go to a slaughterhouse and stop the whole thing, stop anyone from buying meat in a supermarket... troublesome, as you can see. I've been browsing the vegan subreddit, and this problem emerges in a lot of threads, with some people saying stuff along the lines of "veganism is a personal choice, you can't force people to stop eating animal products blah blah" and some people immediately responding with "it's not a personal choice to take the animal's life"... which is honestly a good argument to such a weak statement.
I have to say that some vegan thinking can lead to unpeaceful thoughts. It's not absolutely not a necessary part of veganism, but you'll see a lot of misanthropy in vegan circles. Some vegans claim to not want to have children in order to avoid creating potential abusers. It can mess with your thinking and daily life, you will no longer go do the groceries as carefree and peacefully as you did before. With environmentalism it's even worse I think. Environmentalism taken to its logical conclusion honestly leads to high skepticism of human development, high misanthropy in general. Personally I've recently stopped eating meat, and if it's true that eating meat is wrong, then I'm afraid I will no longer be able to enjoy sushi, salami, and other seaf
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Replies: >>634
>how do we deal with people who torture cats and dogs?
<we don't
LMAO
Replies: >>634
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just came across this pic and it's kinda funny that dogs would support an ideology that holds they don't have rights... thought the same thing the other day when I saw a pic of a guy attaching an ancap badge to his dog
Replies: >>635
>>631
>But if they do have rights, then it follows logically that one would be allowed to go to a slaughterhouse and stop the whole thing, stop anyone from buying meat in a supermarket... 
That's not right at all. The NAP is about defending your property or helping somebody who has asked for help. It's not a license to put on a superman cape and start fucking around in other people's affairs.

>Well, Rothbard didn't think animals have rights.
More specifically he said animals can have rights when they ask for them. 

>>632
>>how do we deal with people who torture cats and dogs?
><we don't
All he said was that animals are not covered by the NAP. That means you can't shoot somebody who is abusing a random animal just because it makes you upset or whatever. That's actually the law now to be frank. And it's not like animal charities will just disappear without the state either. The fact that they exist without state subsidies is proof of how much people care about animals to begin with.
>>633
>it's kinda funny that dogs would support an ideology that holds they don't have rights
You understand that dogs don't have the mental capacity to "support" any kind of abstract idea. I'm sure there are commies who put marxist paraphernalia on their pets too. It's the same as putting a bumper sticker on your car.

Why did libertarianism die so fucking hard since '08?
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>>620
uninformed-consent* (i.e. non-consent)
The solution is violent revolution, taking power by force. The NAP doesn't come into effect until the libertarian state is established. 
The "democratic" system is so corrupt that it is impossible for us to win even with a majority of supporters in tne population. 
The first step is to blind the cities - destroy the caneras and microphones anc other means of surveillance.
Second is to subtly sabotage the  infrastructure that the enforcers of the state's will rely upon to bring in backup to overwhelm an attack by rebels, also whatever setves to frustrated or prevent the rebellion from calling in their own reinforcements.
Third is the attacks on the enforcers of the state, the security guards, the police, the military, and whatever other guys with weapons and legal authorization for use of force exist to substantiate ths power of the government.
The laws die out when theres nobody left to provide the incentive to follow them. Then you immediately step in to fill the vacuum of lawlessness with your own regime. New management.
Replies: >>623 >>625
>>622
If you have political shock troopers upheaving parliament and running through buildings that bind political significance to them, who then cares about targeting the ULEZ system in London?

You tend to ratchet through the gears of ungovernable disobedience and violent revolution, rather than having them take place all at once/at the same time.

The point about "critical mass" is this; not one of you can yet arrange 10 likeminded of your own in the same room. That isn't to insult you. I can't do it either theologically. Imagine the uphill boulder I've got to be pushing to get there. I'm not a sociable person. I'm not evangelical. I'm not equipped to take on the state's particular hatred towards Christianity.

It's not like this because I say it is - go and look for yourself. It's hard to get people from paying for custom number plates to taking them off of their cars. It's just what you have to get good at and what you have to do.

That or they need to be starved of their bread enough that they'll grab the first stick that seems sturdy enough to pull their way out of the mud. Possibly both, possibly they are already getting there.
>>620
>If I ever study the Bible, it'll simply be the tool or the shovel with which to dig out of the hole I've found myself in while I'm sat at home. My primary tool will still be the real, physical shovel.
I guess I'll say it one last time. If you don't understand what you believe and why you believe it then you are just opening yourself up to be programmed and exploited by somebody else's ideology without you even realizing it. You think that being anti-immigrant and anti-gay makes you at odds with the status quo but in the end you still believe in giving up your money and autonomy to the same people pushing all this crap on you.

>they're 80, they're due to die before Ahmed will get to them
>they bear the compulsion to die at the hands of the national health system and in bloody minded ignorance of the way they were supposed to live and die
>Do you have any idea what it's like to ask one man to fix this? What is it you want me to do?
The point is you babble on about returning to traditional values and close-knit neighborhood ties and other such things and yet you don't even lift a finger to help your own family.

>I want paid national service
Yes, I know, you want somebody else to do all the work for you. If zoomer was a mindset instead of an age then you would fit in perfectly as it happens.

>How do you go about measuring that as the customer transactionally speaking
Hw do you pick the best mortgage or car insurance deal? Are you really this terrified of taking on any level of personal responsibility? We are at war and the government is not on our side. After everything you've seen in your lifetime, iraq, afghanistan, syria, libya, yemen, ukraine, covid, that Gordon bloke stealing all your gold, banker bailouts, mass immigration, why do you still look to the government to wipe your arse for you as if they give a single shit about your wellbeing.

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Replies: >>627
>>625
>understanding what you believe and why you believe it
People care about culture more than money, more than rows about any novel structure or about any particular means of production.

As far as I'm concerned, so long as you preserve and improve the culture or you make a culture argument instead of one about academic politick, then I don't care what political theory you then try and execute. Let's try socialism and fucking long queues for bread. But keep survival of "we" as a culture.

>not helping family not very trad is it
Just assume if you will that my experience with the health service is first-hand and involves supporting most of my family as they die in that environment. What do you want me to do with conflating it about fighting Akhmed harder? What undertaking do you have in mind for me?

You need religion. Not necessarily *my* religion, but you need aim or pursuit toward shared (not isolationist) moral goals. Which is something you will never admit because "money will fix it" but when it's cheaper to kill a patient then they will kill a patient. Atheists, Satanists, God's Chosen People™, Hann Chinese... any and all except that if you at least had Buddism going for you you'd be fine.

>you want somebody else to do all the work for you
Not only do I want to pay the professional, using yours and everybody else's money, but I want to train the professional and tell him exactly how I want it done as well. Just like a boomer in fact. Except that I want to deport the invaders instead of inviting them all in, and then the condition is do whatever the fuck you want have a libertarian utopia I don't care just get them out.

>forced compulsion on human lives are just like mortgages and insurance
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This has been bugging me for a while. I'm probably not going to say anything new, but I think a thread discussing the matter here would be nice. If we want to have perfect ethics, why should we apply the NAP only to humans? Why would one justify aggression against other animals? But in fact, why just animals? Why not also apply it to every other living being? Perhaps to non-living things as well: maybe it's atoms that have the property right, or maybe it's subatomic particles that do.
Also, all this poses a big problem. If it's true that it's not justified to violate their property right (if they have it), this makes it impossible for us to do anything without violating ethics, since merely developing the land or even just existing causes the death of some other beings or things, and it would make us aggressors by default.
This might all sound quite extreme, but I wanted to push the argument to the absolute limit.
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>>350
veganism (not necessarily vegetarianism) also has this problem to deal with... by plowing the field, a vegan is basically denying the existence of some smaller animals like bugs (ignoring other non-animal living beings as well). How to solve this contradiction?
Replies: >>617
>>350
>I don't see why being able to argue or reason is relevant to determine rights.
It's the only secular explanation for why humans are special. Even the smartest gorillas that can be trained to use sign language are still utterly incapable of asking questions or engaging in any other kind of abstract thought.
>>360
The reason for these frameworks, however primitive they were for the times they were in, established in trial after bloody trial what the correct and "best for you" way to live was along with the rationale for why it is so, Christ being necessary after all.

What I'd given you there was some of that rationale. You will know whether that rationale is valid or not, independent of one's theology for that matter, if you test it against alternate ideas and alternate theories or rationale and see which ones function as they are supposed to.

With mine and in what I gave you, it logically follows. Whereas the "animals should have personhood status ~ they are equivalent/have as much rights as man" argument made by modern law or modern lefty liberals will not logically and consistently "follow" when a lion mauls their offspring and their response is not "I'm glad that lions have the right to be lions".
>>360
Also props to the Blood Brothers - Papa Roach
>>361
It is true that smaller animals and other living beings die during crop production, but by far the vast majority of crop is fed to livestock. Only a smaller portion is directed towards human consumption. So, almost paradoxically, being on a vegan / plant-based diet leads to way fewer deaths of not only bugs, mice, and other small animals, but also plants as well.

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>>557
>The police are the true government, without them the politicians are just men in suits with opinions that matter only to them.
After Jan 6 they didn't call the cops they called in the military. And while some middle aged trump fans taking an unguided tour around the capital building is a funny meme, try that shit at the federal reserve building and I have no doubt they will go tiananmen square on your ass.
Replies: >>586
>>543
>Not every corner of the Earth is that deep in Orwellian shit. Look at Afghanistan. 
Is The Taliban Creating A Surveillance State In Afghanistan?
https://www.rferl.org/a/azadi-briefing-taliban-surveillance-state-afghanistan/32574507.html

The Taliban said it has installed around 62,000 security cameras in the Afghan capital, Kabul, a city of some 5 million people.

The Taliban’s Interior Ministry said on August 30 that it planned to expand the surveillance network to the rest of the country in the next four years.

>it's self defence. 
The Taliban has banned women from visiting one of Afghanistan's most popular national parks, in the latest attempt to shut out women from public life. The ban has prompted widespread anger, with one Afghan woman telling RFE/RL's Radio Azadi that it was "illogical and inhumane."

LGBT activists say the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan has resulted in discrimination, torture, and even murder. One gay man told RFE/RL that he had to quit school to protect his identity while another said he and his boyfriend were tortured by the Taliban and had to vow to renounce same-sex relationships.
>>558
There's no distinction between police and military, originally they were one and the same before further specialization. 
Even now,  they are the same thing, They both serve the same purpose.
Replies: >>600
>>586
The enemy is the establishment, which is cops and soldiers both, along all the rest of the uniformed guys with guns who serve the state as its emforcememt and defence. Remove them, overcone them, them the entire system collapses as a new one rises to fill the vacuum and replace ir.
>>552
May is the ultimate libertarian waifu.  Loves guns, hates ATF, and is a loli.

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Can we talk about this?

https://archive.is/BFGt0
https://archive.is/secrz
https://archive.is/7AoSL
https://web.archive.org/web/20240227225551/https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/assange-indiscriminately-named-sources-and-encouraged-hacking-us-lawyers-tell-court/ar-BB1iF2gJ
Replies: >>577 >>602
>>575 (OP) 
This guy's been fighting the good fight against the U.S. for more than a decade now.  I don't know what else to say other than, "It sucks."
>>575 (OP) 
Good OP.

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Looking for recs
Replies: >>598
>>589 (OP) 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolibertarianism
>Notable proponents and organizations
>Murray Rothbard, American anarcho-capitalist and Austrian economist.
>Lew Rockwell, associate of Rothbard, advocate of secession, and founder of the Mises Institute.
>Hans-Hermann Hoppe, German economist, anarcho- capitalist, and cultural conservative.
>Stefan Molyneux
>Javier Milei, President of Argentina
>Mises Institute, founded by Rockwell to advance Paleolibertarian and Austrian economic views.
>Mises Caucus, faction within the American Libertarian Party
These are all people I follow anyway. What other kind of libertarianism is there?
Replies: >>601
>>598
There's Cato libertarians aka Gary Johnson/Koch people

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