/liberty/ - Austro-Libertarianism

>>77 (OP) 
To act as currency something needs to be 3 things durable, divisible, and fungible.

>durable
Doesn't rot or erode quickly. Fish would be a bad form of currency.

>divisible
You need to be able to cut it down to the correct size to make a transaction work.

>fungible
This means all instances of the currency are interchangeable. Chickens are not fungible because a chicken might be big or small or old or young or healthy of sick. No two chickens are the same.

Those are the basic criteria. To be a good money it also needs to be scarce. Using seashells as currency worked for mountain tribes because the sea was far away. But once it was possible to transport large amounts of shells from the sea to the mountain it lost its ability to be a good currency.

Gold is a better currency than silver because it is more durable (silver oxidizes in air) and more scarce. Silver is still good for smaller amount though and the fact that it is less scarce is mitigated by the fact that it is consumed by important industrial processes.

The main downside of gold and silver is transport and storage costs. Bitcoin is the best money we have so far. As long as the network can resist attacks and pressure to change the protocol.

>What does /liberty/ think of 1930's germany tying their money to labor?
Literally communism. Any currency that needs to be assigned value from a central authority is garbage.

>Is barter superior to currency?
No.

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>>77 (OP) 
>Bitcoin is the best money we have so far. As long as the network can resist attacks and pressure to change the protocol.
That's my problem with bitcoin, It's a fiat currency that isn't tied to anything. You don't necessarily need to have a currency that has a "face value". A good example of a currency that has no face value and was most of the roman coinage. It was tied directly to the value of the metal it was made of. Bitcoin only has value because people say it does. bitcoin isn't directly tied to anything. Also, why do you trust bitcoin? Can't it be tracked easily? I do agree that it is probably one of the better currencies for online purchases since if you tried to use silver or gold rounds or bars you'd need send it to an address. 
I think if /liberty/ anons ever met up with each other in WROL situation then I the currency in question should be silver or gold.

>>80
>It's a fiat currency that isn't tied to anything.
It is not fiat the value is tied to the difficulty algorithm and the cost of energy. There is no person who can mint new bitcoins out of nothing, just like how there is no person who can create gold out of nothing. That's what makes them both forms of a hard money.

>Bitcoin only has value because people say it does.
All things only have value because people want it.

>why do you trust bitcoin?
Because it is open source and it is made up of a mature and diverse network of nodes who are all financially incentivized to keep the protocol running as is.

>Can't it be tracked easily?
That's like saying why do you trust tcp/ip can't it be tracked. There is shit you put before and after the ip layer that makes you secure.

>>82
>All things only have value because people want it.
But do all people want bitcoin? or do people prefer fiat paper money that is dollar?

>>83
>But do all people want bitcoin? or do people prefer fiat paper money that is dollar?
All people need to store fiat paper money to pay their taxes and to transact with vendors who are legally required to accept it no matter what and also need to pay taxes. Depending on where you live you salary is also paid in fiat because it is easier for your employer to calculate and pay the income tax on it. The artificial demand for fiat created by the state's monopoly on violent is not an argument against better currencies.

>Bitcoin only has value because people say it does.
Are you still trying to defend this? Or do you accept the Misesian notion that all value is subjective.

<<83 
>>84
Anon you are not answering my question here. Which of these two have higher demand for average person?

Bitcoin or US dollar?

>>85
>Anon you are not answering my question here.
<All people need to store fiat paper money to pay their taxes and to transact with vendors who are legally required to accept it no matter what and also need to pay taxes. Depending on where you live you salary is also paid in fiat because it is easier for your employer to calculate and pay the income tax on it. The artificial demand for fiat created by the state's monopoly on violence is not an argument against better currencies.
Just because you don't like the answer...

>>86
Who gives a fuck what the "average person" does anyway. Look at what the rich do, they don't stack millions and millions of dollars in their bank account they store their wealth in assets that can't be inflated away by the fed.

>>77 (OP)  
>What is /liberty/'s ideal currency?
Why do you need ideal (monopoly) currency?

>>78
Monero. Bitcoin's too easy to track.

I'd also accept iron and steel, gold and brass, charcoal and diesel.

>>92
>Bitcoin's too easy to track.
It depends how you use it.

>>85
>Which of these two have higher demand for average person?
>Bitcoin or US dollar?
In economics there is something called Gresham's law which is that bad money drives out good. Given a choice between an undervalued and overvalued currency people will save the undervalued one and spend the overvalued one. When america was on the bimetallic standard people saved gold and spent silver. That made it look like silver was the most popular currency but it's actually the opposite - people traded in silver because nobody actually wanted to keep it.

>>93
True. My problem with it was that anyone who could view a bitcoin address could see all the transactions the wallet owner did.

Paynym fixes this issue somewhat, obfuscating the bitcoin address from an external observer.

Thats why I switched to Monero.

>>93
Privacy on cryptocurrency depends on anonymity sets. How well your transaction will be distinguishable from other transactions depends on not just your, but others' transactions.
Monero's transaction pool is near 100% uniform because there is no option to opt-in. With Bitcoin it is an opt-in system so you will inevitably just end up with small pools of similar transactions, easy to comb through using statistical heuristics.

One time addresses only work as far as those outputs are not combined again. So you can have receiver privacy to a certain extent with Bitcoin. (To a certain extent since everything is public so again, heuristics. Even if you have a set of UTXOs not linked on-chain, but owned by the same person. Spending patterns, TX types, fees, dates of spending, IP address used, etc can still link them together)

>>99
>Privacy on cryptocurrency depends on anonymity sets.
>Monero's transaction pool is near 100% uniform because there is no option to opt-in.
>With Bitcoin it is an opt-in system so you will inevitably just end up with small pools of similar transactions
Bitcoin is way more popular though. Is the set of people using bitcoin's privacy extensions smaller than the set of people using monero? Because your entire argument rests on that assumption.

>>101
>Is the set of people using bitcoin's privacy extensions smaller than the set of people using monero?
Yes, by a large margin in fact.
>https://moneroj.net/shielded/
You can think of it in terms of how a free market chooses a handful of commodities to be money rather than all. In that case a more used money will accumulate more demand, thus will be better of a money. Rinse and repeat until you are left with gold and silver which can coexist.
With the case of privacy, Secondary solution on Bitcoin will always be lesser version of what Monero can do. Elliminated bulky scripts and instead does what it is meant to in the most efficient way possible, ie 16 ring members with amounts hidden and double-length addresses in ~1.5kB.
From my understanding of Bitcoin privacy tech, the best one on the market is Samourai's whirlpool can be equated to pre-2017 pre-ringCT Monero and the tech heavily resembles that as well. You have 5 input and 5 outputs effectively making a ringsize of 5 and instead of amount hiding you have equal amounts.
So Monero does privacy better and also cheaper and faster without even the need for liquidity, because it's an L1 tool focused exactly on this. And since its better, it'll have more users. And since it is better, it'll have more users. Regressing towards today's status-quo where even direct competitors like ZEC or DASH have backtracked and officially said they are no longer a "privacy-coin" and shifted their focus elsewhere. Using FIRO or any experimental chain will result in any potential technological benefits being outweighed by the lack of users and oftentimes security. Bitcoin privacy tools survive in function of how much people prefer not to swap off-chain. But since swapping Monero as a way to get privacy on Bitcoin will enable EAE attacks on larger sums or quick successions, Users who choose that will also eventually just use and hold Monero. Which is a trend we've been seeing with some Bitcoin influencers as well.

>>104
>Yes, by a large margin in fact.
What's your evidence though? The reason I ask is because syncing the entire bitcoin blockchain over Tor took less than a week. Syncing the entire monero blockchain over Tor took 4 months.

>https://moneroj.net/shielded/
This is just a blank page even with noscript disabled. This is what I hate about the official wallet aswell it's full of pretty animations that take up 100% CPU and crashes if you don't have enough RAM. It gives the impression that monero is all style and no substance. This is not what I want from a cryptocurrency.

>look at all these extra features crammed into monero
The rest of your post proves my point as well. If you want to sell this as a secure and stable software project then bragging about how you add 50 new experimental features every week is not the way to go. This isn't hackernews people are not going to do the excited soyface because you fucked around with things and added more bugs and instability.

>>108
Moneroj is a third party service. I use the CLI/GUI wallet from getmonero.org and they don't crash my 2012 potato PC at all.

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>>108
>What's your evidence though?
It's the comparison of private transactions on Monero (red), Zcash (grey), and Bitcoin (yellow). Monero already does ~5-10% of all non-private transactions on Bitcoin so this is unsurprising. I attached it in picrel just in case you need it.
I know it's the site's fault. It's not official by any means tho. It's run by a dude called "CryptoMorpheus", he also launches trocador.app recently.

>syncing through tor
For Bitcoin that might be needed since the Bitcoin devs once tried to fix the glaring privacy issues, but failed. So they did what any good developer does and gave up and delivered a half-done product. With Monero node connections are internally mixed already, so I don't really see the need.

>pretty animations that take up 100% CPU
I personally use feather wallet. It uses gtk instead of Qt and never had problems with performance.
>https://featherwallet.org/

>how you add 50 new experimental features every week
lol you mistook the point entirely. Monero can afford to develop, test, and deploy L1 privacy features. Bitcoin cannot. What you have is small devs trying to hack together something with scripting. It's inefficient and expensive compared to what Monero does. Furthermore, it's less secure. If a Bitcoin privacy tool fails, it takes time to notice. If Monero fails, DNMs will go down threatening million of dollars of income. People's lives depend on Monero just working as intended every day. And so far it has been doing its job 100%

The point wasn't that Monero has cool shiny features, but that Monero is a more mature and developed tool that provides better privacy. And the more people use Monero, the larger its anonymity set becomes. This is why the market inevitable regressed to having Monero as the privacy coin and Bitcoin's privacy tools were left behind.

And some final food for thought, code will become unstable and buggy if not maintained and developed actively. This is why people avoid abandonware. And in order for a software to keep up with a goal that is ever changing, new features must be added but in such a way that they don't leave the project in a worse state than before.

>>110
>It's the comparison of private transactions on Monero (red), Zcash (grey), and Bitcoin (yellow).
That looks good.

>So they did what any good developer does and gave up and delivered a half-done product.
It's reasonable for different projects to have different priorities. Doing one thing and doing it well is better than doing 50 things poorly.

>Monero is a more mature and developed tool that provides better privacy.
The fact that monero is literally illegal for legitimate exchanges to buy/sell is a good sign.

>code will become unstable and buggy if not maintained and developed actively
Cope. I guess the proof is in the pudding though, if monero's development practices were unsafe then somebody would have exploited them by now.

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/liberty/, I'd like to buy some monero. Where would I obtain it? From someone in this thread? Also, what is the best place to buy silver? I assume from a local place.

>>141
Personally, I'm not a fan of buying monero. More of a 'earn it by working' sorta guy.

But if you must, meet a trusted buyer, and exchange XMR for cold hard cash.

Or try these services

1) https://localmonero.co/
2) https://agoradesk.com/nojs/
3) https://bisq.network/

Discovered a new direct swaps platform for Monero, Bircoin, etc. where you can exchange for anything including non-cryptocurrency items.

https://swappit.me/

>>141
Going by the list from monerica.com, there is
>https://monerosilver.com/ (USA)
>https://www.suissegold.eu/ (UK/EU)
>https://veldtgold.com/

>>141
Going by the list from monerica.com, there is
>https://monerosilver.com/ (USA)
>https://www.suissegold.eu/ (UK/EU)
>https://veldtgold.com/

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What does /liberty/ think of Goldbacks? They seem to address the issue of small transactions while still being backed by gold.

https://www.goldback.com/

https://www.goldback.com/

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XD

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>>164
They seem interesting. I'd actually consider buying them for my family members as gifts. Is it possible to extract the gold from it?

>>164
We encourage anyone using Goldbacks to follow all applicable local and national laws regarding the use, ownership, investment, or sale of precious metal.  We do not encourage or support any form of tax evasion.
https://www.goldback.com/frequently-asked-questions

>>167
>We 
who's we? Are you a representative from goldback? If so, why are you posting on an obscure image board like /liberty/? I appreciate the PPH but why is company like you coming in here and advertising?

>>168
>who's we? Are you a representative from goldback?
Why libtards so stupid?

>>169
I don't know if you've been using image boards for a long time but the term "we" is almost never used in this context. This would go more so for /liberty/ since this board heavily encourages individualism.

Physical gold in real world.
Monero in your own wallet on internet.

Yes, silver is valid, but it flows to gold. Other crypto flows to Monero.

>>143
I actually earned some monero selling stuff on moneromarket.io. I encourage everyone to list their bits and pieces for sale there. There is also a wanted section to list things you want. Be a part of the economy, create supply and demand!

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>>172
From your own experience, is monero the most trusted crypto currency?

>>168
>>171
He's obviously quoting from the website he linked and missed out the green arrow at the start.

>>164
>What does /liberty/ think of Goldbacks? 
I'm skeptical of anyone who has been permitted to create their own currency since having a monopoly on currency creation is the source of all power under our current regime.

Cryptocurrencies got away with it because it is impossible to control math and computer code but something physical like gold will always be subject to physical control and confiscation by thugs with more guns than us.

>>167
They had to write that for legal reasons. It's not like anyone is actually enforcing it.

>>174
>I'm skeptical of anyone who has been permitted to create their own currency since having a monopoly on currency creation is the source of all power under our current regime.
>Cryptocurrencies got away with it because it is impossible to control math and computer code but something physical like gold will always be subject to physical control and confiscation by thugs with more guns than us.
You do have a point, but I just don't think it's feasible to use crypto for everything, including in-person transactions. Even private crypto like Monero still doesn't address the problem of hardware backdoors like Intel ME, so unless you are using non-backdoored hardware and software, you still have a problem.

>>180
The source of all power in this world is the supremacy of force. Which for humans takes the form of having other humans who are willing to do whatever you want them to do.

>>188
>The source of all power in this world is the supremacy of force.
If that was true then generals would be running our country not bankers.

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At the next /liberty/ meet up, I'm gonna bring silver and gold rounds as a currency. I hope you guys don't mind that.

A mix of platinum-gold-silver and crpyto (which is also a rare earth mineral based resource)

Failing that, barter with chattel

Otherwise, you gotta take faith in the corruptible and fallible men who would dictate the worth of a scrap of paper

All Wars Are Bankers’ Wars: How private bankers have imposed their system of slavery on the world

Michael Rivero’s 2016 article and the video made from it set out the history of the last 260 years showing the effects of efforts by private bankers to impose their system of slavery on the world.

The Federal Reserve Act forced that system on the American people while the post-WW2 Bretton-Woods agreement forced it onto the rest of the world.

To keep their schemes going, these modern-day slavers do and have resorted to assassination and war to force the world to conduct all commerce only using bank notes borrowed at interest from the bankers.

This is a mafia-like practice of taking a “piece of the action” of all economic activity in exchange for little more than ink and paper – and the correct bribes to the correct officials.

https://expose-news.com/2023/10/10/all-wars-are-bankers-wars/

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What would be a good amount of silver to start off as for stacking?

>>212
Just buy what you can from a reputable dealer. I'd suggest starting with 10oz and if you want more then accumulate to 100oz at whatever pace is comfortable. I'm nearing 1000oz now and I'd love more but I feel I need to start buying more gold

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>>213
>spoiler
Holy cow anon trade some of that silver in for gold. I'm actually buying some for a relative and a friend. Currently, there's a sale going on at JD bullion for 5 ounces of silver at spot with free shipping I'm thinking of getting it.

>>214
The idea is that if the gold/silver ratio ever drops hard I'll be that much better off. That and the price just keeps dipping in line with me having extra cash. 

>5oz at spot
That's pretty good, I got a tube of eagles at spot recently after buying 2 tubes of rounds at a normal premium but hey cheap eagles are rare now

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>>215
>That's pretty good
I thought so too, I haven't bought it yet but now that you've told me that I definitely will. Is it better to buy online or in person at a shop? 
the silver tombstone nugget looks like a silver turd.

>>216
> Is it better to buy online or in person at a shop? 
Go talk to your local shop if you have one, very high chance they'll be based. Just have cash to buy a couple ounces to be polite unless his prices are nuts. 

>The silver tombstone nugget looks like a silver turd
Pictures cannot do those justice. I have a 5oz and a 10oz Gonna get the kilo at some point and every one of those dimples is super reflective. the edges have a really cool rough effect as well. They aren't good for stacking given the premium but if you decide to get into this the occasional fancy piece of metal keeps the process fun. Most of us aren't happy just stacking buffalo rounds.

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>>217
I think I might want to buy one of those tombstones but I'd really need to get the premium brought down to a much lower price. If you feel comfortable, would you be willing to post an image of your tombstone bars? I am considering of buying one because I've actually been to tombstone myself IRL.

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I want to buy sliver, gold, and various crypto from anon. How do I go about this?

>>214
>Holy cow anon trade some of that silver in for gold.
Even though silver is relatively common a lot of it gets consumed by industrial processes. Silver is also way more practical if you are serious about agorism, 1oz of silver is like $20 and 1oz of gold is like $2,000 so silver coins is what you want to bring to your local farmers market.

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>>227
I guess that's a good point. Gold is worth more but silver is a lot easier to work with. I want to trade some silver for a few loafs of bread... I also want to hold a silver round in my hand. Speaking of such things, have you guys been watching silver? It's gone up by almost a dollar since last week. Speaking of that, has anyone bought SD Bullion's silver freedom round?

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Silver and gold are really high right now. When do you guys think it will go down?

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>>248
Silver isn't really that high. It was a bit higher when I first started buying in summer 2022. But I'm still waiting for a dip, of course.
Gold is all-time high now, but I doubt it'll go down much at this point. It's buying season in asia, and in a few months banks are going to start failing again. It's been almost a year since SVB, and the mechanisms they put in place are going to expire soon.