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Putin's given us the boot! Read about it here: https://zzzchan.xyz/news.html#66208b6a8fca3aefee4bf211

READ THE RULES


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Links:
>#8/agdg/ via irc.rizon.net
>https://matrix.to/#/+agdg:matrix.org via matrix programs
>Dev resources: http://8agdg.wikidot.com/resources
>Wiki: http://8agdg.wikidot.com/
>Previous: >>220435
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Make Teagan a cute PS1 model instead.
Replies: >>231567
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Anyway, Nortubel had an update.https://eyeballtank.itch.io/project-nortubel/devlog/662610/8mar2024-limited-playability-of-the-companion
Hope the game is less annoying for people to try.
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>>231550
I'll do that soon, I want to make some models similar to this rottytops.
Replies: >>231582
>>231567
How long until you can model a human character in blender? Originally I wanted to just rip some models from existing games, because modelling a human looked impossible for me (I can handle simple rectangular shapes, but that's about my abilities).
Replies: >>231584 >>231592
>>231582
Using the tutorials that were posted for me, and me being a total beginner I was able to make a model in about 2-3 months that looked passable. However I still can't rig bones, or texture worth a shit. Bare in mind I also used reference pictures to model from the sides, back, and front.
Replies: >>231585
>>231584
>2-3 months that looked passable
Yeah, I'll pass for now I guess. With my speed that would mean something like 1 year to get something passable..
Replies: >>231586
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>>231585
Watch this video and by the end you'll be a blender sculpting master.
I promise.
Replies: >>231587
>>231586
As much as I like chris he doesn't really explain what he's doing, he just does it.
Replies: >>231588
>>231587
He does in that video. He explains what every tool does and how to get a good mesh.
>>231582
You can just use built in meshes. Or use something like makehuman, they even have baked animations. But from nothing it took me like 4-5 hours to make a base mesh, by following 2 hour tutorial.
Replies: >>231601
>>231592
>makehuman
My problem with that is it tries to create realistic humans, and I want more anime look, like what Teagan-Anon is doing here. What I tried a little bit is importing a model from Koikatsu, good thing I also get clothes and animations, but the importer is a huge mess, and right now I have 18373493 other things to sort out before I can move on to characters. And not exactly legal, but it's not like I'm going to sell anything, so whatever.
Replies: >>231604
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>>231601
For makehuman use lowest possible mesh resolution and adjust it. Its "base mesh" you edit these to suit your needs. However I would advice you to make your own basemesh, because its good practice, even if you never use it. The main goal is for them to have good topology.
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Bunfag here. Haven't done shit on the game but I think I figured out the art style. I'm going for sort of horror aesthetics with body horror for the enemies. There's already lore which may never see the light of day and if I end up not putting as much effort into their animations I can pretend it's intentional. I also found a patreon EA eroge with a protagonist that looks similar and has 140px tall sprites and I'm taking that as a sign of god that >100px is a good idea. 
Anyway, since sturgeon is a double nigger and still hasn't reversed my accidental perma I made a neocities to post updates and future demos. The site is still empty as I haven't changed anything since >>229319 but do check it out once or twice per year. 
https://cgtw.neocities.org/
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Hello.
Replies: >>231882 >>231902
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>>231880
Yes?
Replies: >>231887
>>231882
W-Well, anon.cafe's /agdg/ is in danger. I, the last remaining anon, have come to ask if we can continue here. Or we could request a new board together if enough anons still exist.
Replies: >>231889 >>231901
>>231887
Can come here so long as there's no circlejerking
Replies: >>231893
>>231889
circlejerk here please, we need users
>>231887
Is there enough people there to warrant a board? Last time I checked it was unfortunately super dead.
Replies: >>231948
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>>231880
Hi.
>>231901
No idea. It's almost like every agdg community decided to up and die.
Replies: >>231949
>>231948
>It's almost like every community decided to up and die.
Fixed it for ya. Did everyone convert into redditnigger or discordtranny? I want my early 00s internet back.
Replies: >>231955
>>231949
They're all at halfchan.  I know at least one guy who actually released a game migrated there.
>>231955
It should be quite obvious why that is not a place towards which we should aspire.
>>231955
Well, if you want at least some publicity, halfchan might be an option. But I dont see how it would be useful for any discussion.
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>>231955
People who create things invariably want to share their creations with other people and get input on the stuff they do. Cuckchan has like 4 different gamedev threads of various flavors so it's hard to sell places like this to anyone who isn't obsessed with privacy or their principles or just prefer a more quiet corner. Same goes for drawfagging.

The biggest advantage this place has over cuckchan would be group projects like >>168647 because the threads and discussions are more long-lived and controllable and less ADHD-fueled. The problem is that those require a relatively skilled anon at the center to make sure it can keep going smoothly and isn't bottlenecked by 1 or 2 fags like that project in particular is.
Replies: >>231989 >>237698
>>231987
>People who create things invariably want to share their creations with other people and get input on the stuff they do.
And to get that input, many are willing to whore their very souls, sadly. Motivation for creating something should be the act of creating itself, not the possible headpats.
Replies: >>231991
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>>231989
So what have you been working on, anon?
Replies: >>232003
>>231991
I might end up helping some weird artist with his RPG Maker game. Spent half day trying to get this my completely legit copy from archive.org working in a win7 VM. I have a feeling that this will turn into a very bad idea very fast. This rpgmaker editor is pure cancer
Replies: >>232015 >>232017
>>232003
It is, you should help me make my game instead.
>>232003
>>232003
We should all three make a game instead and touch penises.
Replies: >>232065
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This thread would be better if everyone stopped working on their PATHETIC projects and worked on my LEGENDARY game instead.
Replies: >>232020 >>232060
>>232019
post it
Replies: >>232029
>>232020
Last time I worked on anything game related was 5 months ago. I'm more of a /sdg/ guy.
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>>232019
That anime is a fucking fever dream
>>232017
Adding your favourite anon twice does not make him a double.
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Got two special primitive types implemented in my PS4 emulator: rectangle lists and quad lists.
They work in geometry shaders that get generated as needed and cached.
Thanks to that Hotline Miami's frames can now get partially replayed, though there's some stuff going on that has to be added to get a proper final image.
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The current update on Nortubel is going okay, doing some level design stuff and still want to do stuff like certain "convo" NPC's, some level themes and cutscene ""art"".
Even did stuff for worlds not yet to be available.
When it comes to art that the Player could stumble upon if they are willing to explore levels, I even did a goofy image but it'll show up much later in the game still.
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Guten tag, Anon.
Replies: >>232400
>>232385
This ist keine Krautsprache board.
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Would I be wasting my time if I made an "MMO" like habbo hotel where you can submit your own sprites for furniture and characters/equipment and make rooms?

I thought it would be fun to make that and ask other people to add items into it and build the world together, but then I started wondering what's the point. The only thing you could really do in there is chat. I can't think of a way to make it more interesting without making the whole idea way more complicated.

For example, I could make the items cost something, which would automatically make it more interesting since you could own and obtain and trade items, but how would you get them? I'd have to basically develop additional games to work as money-making minigames, or something like that.

If it's just objects in rooms and moving your avatar around in them, it would be very simple to make this. But if I have to start making an actual MMORPG then it's going to get too complicated.
>>232417
no and yes, it wouldn't be much of a game and would resemble something similiar to vrchat, second life, etc.
Replies: >>232491
>>232490
>it wouldn't be much of a game and would resemble something similiar to vrchat, second life, etc.
Or you know, habbo hotel.
>>232417
>I want players to work in my game
Why?
Replies: >>232493
>>232492
Dunno, ask these guys >>168647 they seem to have more experience.
Replies: >>232494
>>232493
You don't work in Libbie VN, it just takes place in a workplace environment. The thread itself is about making a silly little game together for fun, not to make something inside of someone else's game for rewards. So neither are relevant to what you said in any way,
Replies: >>232504
>>232417
Boring.
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>>232494
This stack of misunderstandings is so stupid that I'll back it up a bit.

I don't understand the question "work in your game" because completing objectives to receive rewards is what almost all games revolve around. I don't know why you would object to adding gameplay into a videogame, so I interpreted the question as "why would you want other people to work on your game", so I replied with a thread where people work on a game together. It didn't even occur to me that the Libbie VN takes place in a working environment.
Replies: >>232506
And just in case, there's 2 things you could be referring to as "work":
1. "ask other people to add items into it and build the world together"
2. "money-making minigames"

In case you referred to #1, I'll refer you to Minecraft/Roblox/VRchat/Second Life.
Replies: >>232506
>>232504
Because you describe it as "to have fun with things, players must work in a minigames, which I will add as an afterthought". "Everyone else is doing it" is not a real answer. 
This kind of design decision is why games lost all the fucking originality and just follow arbitrary rules of "everyone else did it". If you adding something to the game, you need a better reason than this. 
>>232505
2nd one.
Replies: >>232508
>>232506
I wasn't planning to take it seriously and sell or advertise it as a social game or anything, I was thinking of it as a "zzz hotel" kind of project mostly for this imageboard to mess around with or something like that. My concern was that it would be boring and pointless if it's just placing sprites around and chatting since imageboards already serve the purpose of talking to people.

Collecting and hoarding stuff is inherently fun and would be an easy way to give the game more appeal, but you can't do that if there's no limit to how you can obtain items.
Replies: >>232509 >>232511
>>232508
>Collecting and hoarding stuff is inherently fun and would be an easy way to give the game more appeal
This is true but you would need to make the act of earning items the focus of your development, rather than looking at the pretty sprites you've earned while chatting. You have to make the act of earning the items a fun game in its own right, which means the chatroom needs to be a secondary element.
Replies: >>232510
>>232509
In other words, making that game is a waste of time because I would have to make an MMORPG instead.
>>232417
Seems like it could be a neat little idea, though I think most people have already gotten their fill of something like this in Animal Crossing.  You'd have to have some kind of angle that would set your work apart from the obvious comparison points like VRChat and Second Life.

>>232508
>just placing sprites around and chatting 
If you want to give people the options to do things themselves and create meaningful content, then that sounds more like Space Station 13.  A level and scripting editor would be significantly more difficult, of course.

If you wanted to take the concept and make it more involved then you may want to take cues from the Sonic Adventure Chao Garden and allow people to raise virtual pets in their own environments.  You could probably use AI that's a lot less detailled than something meant to represent a human.
Replies: >>232512 >>232514
>>232511
What you need is fun gameplay which leads to other fun gameplay. Not "players must waste time on shit they dont care about to get to the good parts". You are not obligated to copy something for the sake of "but they did it, so shall I". Minigames are fine, sandboxes are fine, but its not fine to add them as time wasting dispassionate elements.
>>232511
>set your work apart from the obvious comparison points like VRChat and Second Life.
I don't know exactly how they work, but I thought it would be different just because it's 2D and makes it easier to make things. You could just open a new room and place tiles/furniture from a catalogue that has all the items everyone has submitted into the game, plus tile-based 2D games are much easier to build with than 3D games.

I was also going to use similar avatar customization as Gaia Online where you put on layers of clothing and/or bodyparts, so you can "build" your character too as opposed to choosing a preset avatar.

>scripting editor
I was thinking about that, but I couldn't come up with a solution that's powerful enough to be worth it's complexity. I get too ambitious and start thinking of a game where you can make new games, and anything less than that is too boring.

>allow people to raise virtual pets in their own environments
How would that work though? It would be weird if there's pets but you can't just submit your own since you can submit custom content for everything else.
Replies: >>232523 >>232570
>>232514
>a game where you can make new games
Like minecraft? Or more like dreams?
Replies: >>232528
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>>232523
There's infinite ways you could do it, but as long as you can create simple rules/logic then you could make simple games with it. For example adding "events" into a room (open door, change value X, swap furniture Y with Z, give item to a player, print text...), and having various ways to trigger them and check for conditions. I remember all kinds of dumb games people came up with in Habbo Hotel just with the ability to open doors and roll dice and sit on chairs. With the ability to create custom items, swapping one item with another opens up a lot of possibilities by itself if you're creative anough.

The more I think about it, the more I want to make some kind of world simulation where you can create materials with properties and change them with some kind of scripts and rules and give them various behaviors.

I keep thinking things like: what if you want to create a gas that spreads through the room and causes you to faint and lose the ability to move if you're not wearing a specific item, and then someone else needs to use X and Y on a custom workbench to craft a medicine to heal you with? All the simple logic systems I can think of still sound too complicated to be worth their simplistic capabilities, and if I'm going to decide to make a good logic system then it should be GOOD and able to do all these interesting things, but that's even more complicated.
Replies: >>232531
>>232528
Are you sure you don't want to develop a SDK?
Replies: >>232597
>>232514
>You could just open a new room and place tiles/furniture from a catalogue that has all the items everyone has submitted into the game, plus tile-based 2D games are much easier to build with than 3D games.
>I get too ambitious and start thinking of a game where you can make new games, and anything less than that is too boring.
It seems like you want to make RPGMaker. Or Spore.

>virtual pets
Same way the Chao Garden worked. A pet is a series of numbers (stats) and behaviors (weighted RNG depending on stats) associated with a character model. The model has a few simple animations like walking and running, and there are a few points of interest in an otherwise simple environment (food, the player, other pets). The pet chooses from various points of interest and moves towards them, then plays the appropriate animation upon reaching them.
Replies: >>232597
>>232531
>>232570
>develop a SDK
>RPGMaker
>Spore
You can do all of that with simplistic rules and pre-determined options.
I want to make a game engine, but adding scripting language on top of it, seems like a fucking nightmare.
Replies: >>232650
>>232645
As far as I've been told, adding a scripting language on top of your engine is actually pretty easy.  AFAIK, it's as simple as adding a basic parser, then exposing some function calls to the scripting API.  I've never done it though, so I suppose take that with a grain of salt.
Replies: >>232651
>>232650
>its pretty easy
>it's as simple as adding a basic parser, then exposing some function calls to the scripting API
With that logic, making complier(and your own language) is easy, just parse the text, and output binary stuff. Just making it work is not going to cut it, you basically must design whole fucking framework around the idea of scripting. What in an event causes change in variable at the end of the queue, but other function only reads it at the start of the next cycle, and as result change in value does absolutely nothing.
Replies: >>232655
>>232651
If your scripting language, you know, a scripting language, then yeah, it probably is easy.  When you have to translate shit into actual assembly then it's actually difficult.  All you're really doing is creating an API for functions that another compiler (or interpreter depending on whatever language you're using) will do all the work instead.  It really depends on the level of scripting functionality you want to add.

For instance - you want to expose to your modders/scripters a function that updates every turn.  They can write their scripts, and your function will have a call at the end that runs these scripts.  It's the amount of shit you open up to your modders that makes things more complicated.  If all you expose to them is just a few basic variables they can edit, that's pretty fucking simple.  If you want them to be able to dynamically modify the sequence of events that happens throughout your game, change the effects of items to completely custom effects that aren't just edits of your own, or even add entirely new features, that is a completely different story.

Like all things, getting it up and running really isn't the hard part.  It's designing around the complexity of everything you want without turning your codebase into a pile of garbage that's difficult.
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How would I go about recreating Elite 2's autogenerated limited colour palette?
Replies: >>233332
>>232745
There's a shader efffect that should do it, I believe its called color quantization.  Here's a video that should cover it (the guy talks faggy but he goes over the material decently enough): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wOUe32Pt-E
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Ideaguys assemble:

Imagine a setting like Stalker where anomalies are invisible. In the beginning you can't detect anomalies at all which only allows you to explore specific safe areas, but somewhere in early-game you obtain an ability to detect anomalies which allows you to explore the zone properly.

So then, imagine there's an electric storm that disables all your devices. How could you retain the beginner-tier ability to detect anomalies even during that storm? Basically the question is: how can you justify all the devices being disabled except for the beginner detector? Should the beginner detector be different from other devices somehow (for example sunglasses with a special anomaly filter)? Should it use a different power source (if so then what, and why can't other devices use it?)?
The sunglasses idea has the problem that some anomalies are detected by sound, so the device would have to be some kind of headgear.
>>233610
A wizard did it.
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>>233610
Just make the detector a mechanical device that doesn't use any electronics. Something something magnets or whatever. And the reason people buy more sophisticated detectors that get fried every time a storm hits is because they detect every anomaly in existence with millimeter accuracy
Replies: >>233619
>>233617
>mechanical device
I don't know how to explain it affecting your ability to see and hear supernatural things. Maybe it should be a permanent body-altering drug that gives you the ability to sense more.

>people buy more sophisticated detectors ... because they detect every anomaly in existence with millimeter accuracy
That's the point, the more you progress the easier it becomes to navigate the world and the more esoteric places you can go to. But I want to occasionally take away all your fancy gizmos and force you into a more careful playstyle for a bit, and I don't know how to do that without completely removing your ability to move around.

I could make all anomalies barely perceptible without a detector, but that prevents a cool beginning phase where you can see but can't explore 80% of the map and have to go through known safe routes.
Replies: >>233640 >>233674
>>233619
Make it a drug, and the storms themselves are anomalies that fuck with your "vision" like the glare you get from looking at the sun.
>>233610
Dont punish players for playing the game and having fun. The only real way to steal something from player for no reason, is to give him something even better instead. Not to mention, random invisible traps are the worst fucking design ever, and people figured it out in 8 bit era already. The counter play to invisible deadly traps is playing a different game. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvGxHuEUXgs
Say I want to shill really quickly and hard, best platforms?
Replies: >>233671 >>233731
>>233669
Screaming at the top of your lungs in front of your house.
>>233619
>I don't know how to explain it affecting your ability to see and hear supernatural things.
You could have a device that makes noise when anomalies are near, and then something like a particle spray that the player can use to make the anomaly visible. If you want the player to focus on anomalies during these storms, it should be something he has to actively use.
>>233669
You'll have to play ball with mainstream social media and Twitch/YouTube influencers, sadly.  The best way to ensure people see your game is to give out keys/download links to Twitch/YouTube channels along with a short description.
<here is my game
<here is a 3-4 bullet point list of what is cool about my game
<here is a key/download link
<here are my social media accounts so people can follow me for updates

You don't need to go after individual streamers or use Twitch's bounty program (where you pay them to play your game for a certain period of time).  I am sure people have compiled lists of streamers who enjoy showcasing new or underappreciated indie games and will play your stuff, but you'll have to do that research yourself - there's probably a subreddit for it somewhere.  If you can fit into a video series like Iron Pineapple's "I played X Soulslikes" then even better.

As for posting stuff yourself, post it everywhere: Twitter and YouTube are the defaults for small and medium-large updates respectively, but if you're making something that would appeal to a particular demographic then you can see if there are any enthusiast forums (Pizza Tower got a lot of good feedback from a Sonic fangame site).

Most of self-promotion will feel like screaming into the void, so don't be discouraged. Just keep at it and eventually someone will begin to care about you.
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Made some small advances on my PS4 emulator:
>Can now replay frames from Worms WMD, though incorrectly
>Initial work on asynchronous command buffer submission
>Frame replays are now compressed with lzip
Took some time to think on a name for the emulator too and came up with "egemu", short for "eiga geimu emulator". Does that sound too gay?
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Doing cutscene art as one of the last things of this Nortubel update.
Replies: >>234192
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>>234159
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Any other games besides Project Zomboid and Rimworld that have unusually detailed character status and protections/modifiers?
Replies: >>234307 >>234369
>>234306
Basically every roguelike if you can get over the ASCII visuals.
Replies: >>234309
>>234307
>if you can get over the ASCII visuals
I can't. I'm looking for references how games communicate/visualize/organize these things. Anything is possible if it's just an excel spreadsheet.
>>234306
The Unreal World.

It's an Iron-Age Finland survival sim that's is elder-god-tier old in terms of continuous development and refinement.
It's turn-based, and the graphics may look dated to most, but it's got actual non-ascii graphics. 

Also, if you want an easy and fairly-stress-free start at learning the game, spec yourself out as a fisherman, hunting your meals with a bow or stones is stressful when you have no experience figuring out how the game works.
Hello, fellow nodevs. Anon.cafe/agdg/ has found a new home at trashchan.
Come say hi!
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I modeled a M4 rifle, its technically done, its around 18k triangles, I don't know how many triangles AAA guns have but I'm sure its more than 18k, I've tried to keep it as detailed as possible under 20k triangles, now going to work to organize the UV map and try to texture it, than I will try to animate the weapon.
Replies: >>234691 >>234833
>>234681
>20k
Probably, but you should aim to lower it anyway. A lot of it will be baked into normal map, so you might want to make lower res version, and unwrap it instead, and bake the details from the original model. 
>animate it
You will need hands and, more importantly, rig for it, and you should look for a common rigs for that kind of stuff.
Replies: >>234741
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>>234691
I have managed to decrease the number of triangles from 18k to around 11,5k, for comparison Team Fortress 2 Sentry Gun level 3 has 11312 triangles, according to the Team Fortress wiki.
Now I will work on the UV map and texture.
Replies: >>234808 >>234833
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>>234741
Finished the UV map, and tried to use a procedural material to detect the edges of the model, didn't like the result in some part, I think I will have to hand paint most of the model.
Replies: >>234833 >>234931
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>>234681
>>234741
>>234808
Damn, good job anon!
>>234808
Try Ambient occlusion too. Also its fine result, you dont need perfect edges in most cases, you just need diversify surfaces, and highlights. But you might need to edit it by hand later.
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Finally did the Nortubel update.
https://eyeballtank.itch.io/project-nortubel/devlog/679633/10feb2024-nort-part-3-and-massag-coav
Replies: >>234995
>>234961
>even more niggers
Replies: >>235009
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>>234995
In his defense he might be a nigger himself judging by the language on the HUD. What's a ezcudo?
Replies: >>235011
>>235009
Escudo is the closest I found: https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/escudo
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I'm making AI backed dressup game. It' works like this, you select character, select danbooru tags and press generate.
Also I want to create something leaning to visual novel, so user won't be bored, because it takes ~30 seconds to generate new image.
The question is, how do I make not shit UI? What do I read? What to take as a reference?
Replies: >>235173
>>235168
>select character, select danbooru tags and press generate
So basically a dumbed down SD webui? What's the goal here?
>I want to create something leaning to visual novel
I hope you don't want to write the text with AI too, that would be just awful. Otherwise just grab a VN engine, throw your images into it and write the story. Some people will be still triggered by AI art though.
>how do I make not shit UI
Dunno, maybe this? https://pixeldrain.com/u/Qexa1Lfz
>>235173
>dumbed down web UI
Pretty much
>What's the goal here?
To polish generation engine for actual visual novel. I've noticed, many games have engines to select image among thousands depending on inventory and figured, thats pretty much text2img.
>Write text with AI
AI probably will do a better job that me with my writing skills, but no. I'll write few hundred lines, for different characters and different generation stages, probably with AI assistance.
>People triggered by AI
Fuck those dinosaurs. They'll die out eventually.
>600 pages manual
Thank you, that's great material, but I hope to release my showelware before that book.
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>>235173
Absolutely amazing how noone at M$ read or took cues from their own damn book.
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>>235204
>To polish generation engine for actual visual novel
How is this any different than a regular VN with a standard set of images? Do you want an autogenerated VN that writes itself? How is that any better than a well written story with good CGs that has a set running time from point A to point B?
>Fuck those dinosaurs. They'll die out eventually.
The people who play videogames will die out eventually too. Try to find your script an audience in this sea of shit.
>>235173
>https://pixeldrain.com/u/Qexa1Lfz
<AInigger who gets everything done to him
<learning to do anything by himself
He'll get demotivated the moment he opens the .pdf.
>>235204
>thats pretty much text2img.
Yes, but that already exists. What are you want to achieve that's not possible with txt2img? Given that from your description, I suppose you want to make a tool geared for game/vn developers, just taking SD webui and hiding a few options doesn't seem too useful.
>Fuck those dinosaurs. They'll die out eventually.
I guess most people's problem is not the AI itself, but the same with what you have with RPGMaker/Unity games, i.e. a relatively accessible way to make games by people who barely understand what they're doing, resulting in a metric fuckton of crap games, and maybe one or two good that you won't find in the endless sea of shit anyway. And I don't think this is going to change soon, except maybe when nobody make games anymore and we only have AI games (yikes).

>>235206
That book was published in 1999, before they were overthrown by diversity hire trannies. And yes, despite what FOSS/amiga/whateverfags say, win95, at its time, was a truly remarkable achievement. Too bad after gaining quasi-monopoly it slowly went shit.
Replies: >>235227
>>235204
>Fuck those dinosaurs. They'll die out eventually.
Sour grapes. Learn to draw.
Replies: >>235227 >>235266
>>235214
Probably, you meant without txt2img. I want to be able to add new characters and items with a speed of thought.
>I guess most people's problem is not the AI itself...
I do agree. That's why I'm not calling my shit done.
>>235220
>Learn to draw.
It's fun thing to do once a week, but I don't like it that much and don't want my project to depend on it. And have no money for a real artist.
>>235220
>Learn to draw.
Only if it were so simple.
Replies: >>235306 >>235355
>>235266
it fucking is nigger, just pick up a pencil.
Replies: >>235309
>>235306
I tried blender, but I had to put it on hold for the time being. Also I'd need to finish my .blend<->.json converter first to have a file format that I can actually put into git without shitting up everything
Replies: >>235326
>>235309
>spoiler
Anon, you're supposed to use something like Git LFS for that, not shit assets into your repo.
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>>235326
>Git LFS
I'm not touching that centralized microshit abomination that combines the worst features of git and svn. If you want something try git-annex (but be prepared to deal with its sheer autism). But it doesn't help that whatever you do, it's just going to be some binary blob to git and you can't do anything with them other that store them and retrieve. Even if you just move one vertex, you won't get a meaningful diff.
Plus blender's file format is a forensics nightmare, if you uploaded a single blend file anywhere consider yourself half-doxed.
Replies: >>235352 >>235355
>>235339
There goes anon always putting the blame on others and never to himself
>>235266
>Only if it were so simple.
>>235339
>all this autism about file formats
>people are guna DOXXX me if i upload blend files
Have you considered that the reason things seem so complicated is because you perceive them that way?
Replies: >>235365
>>235355
>the reason things seem so complicated is because you perceive them that way
Why, should I consider a file format, which is practically a memory dump of the 3D editor, complete with pointers and padding bytes and whatever garbage left in the fields after you overwrite a longer string with a shorter one sane? Then you put a minimal description of the structures next in the file, so when the app tries to load it again, it can fix the structures if you're on a different architecture/version/whatever and the memory layouts of the structures no longer match? Except of course the parts that are not encoded in the "DNA" so you have a metric fuckton of random fixup functions scattered around blender's source code, so this horrible piece of shit can actually load back the file. All this just to save a millisecond or two when trying to save a file (while probably making load slower).
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Still need to finish it, add details, apply different metal and rough maps to different parts of the weapon, different coloration on the stock, grip and guard, wear and tear on the edges of the mesh, normal maps for specific parts.
I create the materials with material maker and combined with a hand drawn black and white map, the hardest part was creating a material that I was happy with, this is what I got, I'm not satisfied with the result, the grunge map looks like a tumor, I was going for a stylized look but I'm don't think I achieved it.
I also managed to decrease the number of triangles to 10k, which is great.
Replies: >>235571
>>235529
Dont use substance painters, they are shitty. Also you probably need to redo the unwrapping, look at the grip in first image. And dont forget metallic and bump maps. And try using different type of interpolation, but you might need to increase resolution, due to complexity of the model. Or use closest interpolation and pretend its intentional.
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>>235571
I'm using material maker to generate the textures, the maps are painted on blender, personally I think the texture are quite large, its 2048 x 2048, I'm going to bake them into a 1k or 512.  
Yeah, the grip was mistake, will fix that.
Replies: >>235608
>>235603
>2k
I expected something like 512, it looks awful for that resolution. Just watch some tutorials on making rusty metal in blender. Seems like the scale is completely wrong on dirt, and it missing bump map still. 
And consider repacking UV islands, lots of empty stuff, and some small parts dont need to be this big. Overall I would just make a lower res mesh to avoid small parts all together, but it is a pain in the ass to make.
Replies: >>235609
>>235608
>some small parts dont need to be this big
PS. In case you dont know UV islands dont can be freely resized, consider making the most important parts (like the top of the gun facing player) the biggest.
Anon, are you participating in the gamejam event?
>>235618
Trash /agdg/'s? Yeah.
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>>235618
I can't even get an Arkanoid clone to work properly
Maybe in a month.
>>235618
I havent even started to attempt to make a video game at all. I'm just gonna play them,
Replies: >>235767
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Nortubel chapter 4 will have a sort of beach level.
>>235658
What's stopping you?
Replies: >>235926
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>finally start getting over my burnout after 800 years
>immediately get angry at OpenGL again
I'm almost sure I've asked this rhetorical before, but how is it even possible for 3D games to work without requiring 1000s of draw calls for every frame? How is it possible for 2D games to work without overcomplicated renderers? The problem is that you can't use 2 different textures or 2 different 3D models without splitting them into separate draw calls. You can instance AN object, but only 1 object, there's no way to have 2 different objects in the same draw call, there's not even a way to have 2 sprite quads in the same draw call unless their sprites are in a single texture atlas. But what if the atlas runs out of space? Now you need dynamic texture creation and your renderer needs to organize things based on which atlas their sprite ended up in. You can make a texture array to increase the space, but what if people mod your game and the whole texture array runs out of space? Even if the user has a giga omega GPU with 600 GB of memory, your texture atlas isn't set up to hold all the sprites so now your shitty 2D game won't work on their computer.

I get it that the GPU wants things to be set beforehand, but the way OpenGL is set up is the opposite of that. It already returns literally everything as GLuints, why can't I just fill a GPU-side array with GLuints that represent textures/models and have the GPU pick the appropriate model/texture/shader from that buffer? In fact why doesn't the GPU just work that way entirely? All the draw calls and buffers should just be in the GPU and point towards each other and then you just say "draw all the shit" and the GPU draws everything in the entire game without needing this constant pointless back and forth with the CPU-side code.

People say that Vulkan/etc are faster because they give you "more low level" access to things, but I don't even know what I would do with more "low level" shit. I want features that should have obviously always been there and could be easily added to OpenGL, it's not "lower level", it's missing features. I don't even know if other graphics APIs have the obvious shit in the first place because nobody is capable of expressing what exactly they do that you can't do in OpenGL. The one thing I know is multithreading, but again, I'm not lacking in the ability to use multiple CPU cores or whatever, I'm lacking in the ability to tell the GPU to do things that should be done GPU-side. Multithreading will do jack shit to help with the problems I'm talking about.

I just want to move on from this shit into making games but I can't because I'm autistic and using a retarded rendering system that's slow and inflexible and limited stresses me out. I don't want to make a game that has arbitrary limitations like texture sizes that don't need to be there, and while I don't need my game to be super perfectly optimized I don't want it to be way slower than it should be either. I already have other problems to worry about on top of this.
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>>235872
>Now you need dynamic texture creation and your renderer needs to organize things based on which atlas their sprite ended up in
Yep. Welcome to bin packing. 
>600gb
You over exaggerating, even silly giant textures of today, with 6 different maps per model are not that big, its just few megabytes per texture, and modern gpu have internal compression for everything, which is why its virtually impossible to change anything, without knowing literally everything there is to know about architecture. 
>atlas for 2d game is too big
You dont need to load every texture all the time. 
>opengl bad
Yeah, this is why Vulcan is a thing now. It can do everything you need, but you have to make everything yourself. 
>why doesnt it work this way
Because this is how computers work. A lot of time its just fetching stuff from one memory into another. From hdd, to ram, to cache, to cpu registers, and gpu adds a whole new additional layer of that. For example, you can have pixel perfect precision for games, since you already rendering them in pixel perfect way, but its impossible because calculations are split between cpu and gpu, and if you start moving information back and forth each frame, and overload rendering operation with additional output information, it will be extremely slow, due to constant fetching information back and forth. 
GPU can be called batch processing units, because they can solve a lot of stuff, if its presented in batches, so they dont have to fetch information all the time. Its programmers job to make these batches. Programming is mostly presenting information to a computer in most efficient way. 
But at the same time, its not really worth your time to optimize the shit out of everything. Even RGBA 8888 colors are extremely unnecessary in most situations. Art looks better with limited palette, instead of "lets use every color we have" approach, so 8888 should be rarely used. You can adjust your shit, but GPU will use 8888 format anyway, because its most efficient way to do things, due to standardization. Its not worth to adjust architecture of GPU to save a few bytes, in some situations, it would literally have opposite effect. 
TL;DR dont worry about it. 
>I'm autistic and using a retarded rendering system that's slow and inflexible and limited stresses me out
Just make your own computer architecture. All you need is some transistors and wires.
>>235872
Anon, 2GB of VRAM means you can have a more than 22K by 22K texture atlas if you want to be a gigatard. I don't know what kind of sprite size you're planning to use but if you go over that you're doing it wrong.
Replies: >>235910
>>235872
>while I don't need my game to be super perfectly optimized I don't want it to be way slower than it should be either
To be blunt anon: you're not informed or experienced enough to know the solution to your problems yet. You're worrying about minor or very edge case things. Too often I see this kind of talk as just excuses to not make progress because you 'need' to have this optimal solution for a hypothetical game.
Replies: >>235910 >>235912
>>235885
7.5% of Steam users have 1GB of VRAM.
2.75% have 512MB of VRAM.
Both numbers are increasing in popularity, not reducing.

>>235895
What a worthless reply.
Replies: >>235912 >>235919
>>235910
And claiming that games take 600gb is worthy? Or claims that 2d games are impossible. He clearly didnt know what he is talking about, and >>235895 is correct.
Replies: >>235913
>>235912
>600gb
Yeah sorry that was a typo, I meant 600 terabytes.
>>235910
>create made up problems
>ignore solutions and advice
Yeah, you're one of the niggers always shitting up /agdg/ with these 'woe is me' posts and doesn't want advice from anyone that's actually made games. Fuck off.
Replies: >>235923
>>235919
I'll welcome advice from people who have made a serious game with their own custom game engine. You can say whatever you want based on some theoretical high level concepts while being completely detached from my concerns or what I'm trying to accomplish, but it's not going to be any more helpful than my own experience with these things. Especially when the "advice" that you came up with is "ur dumb" and "just stop caring lmao" and something about muh modern computers.
Replies: >>236147
>>235767
Making a game is hard
Replies: >>235930 >>236147
>>235926
That's not an excuse to never try.
Replies: >>236084
I'm making an isometric game that's using an orthographic 3d camera to render tiles and objects. Does anyone know if there's a way to draw textures for the tiles so that it will look retro without being hot garbage?
Replies: >>236007
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>>236005
Its actually dimetric projection, dont use 45 degree angle for camera, use 60 for 1:2 projection. Obviously always use power of 2 resolutions for renders, and its better to render in higher resolution and shrink stuff later.
Use 2.825 orthographic scale and multiples of it for perfect 1:2 scale. Its important when you render seamless stuff, but you also have to use 0 pixel filtering and no denoiser, which is not ideal.
Dont bother with most of tiny details, its impossible to notice them. Some stuff looks better in eevee, some in cycles. 
There are some easy texture pixelization tricks, just multiply mapping by a number, use modulo, and divide it back, to get pixelated mapping. Its way easier to make fake pixelization this way, than actually using low resolution for renders. No one will care if pixels are all in different sizes. Alternatively you can use premade textures with "closest" interpolation. 

I posted about this stuff before in previous threads and in https://trashchan.xyz/agdg/thread/642.html
Replies: >>236015 >>236154
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>>236007
Thanks, although I don't know if I completely understand what you're saying. I managed to get dimetric projection (i think), but my tile scaling is messed up, and using a factor of 2.825 (or 300/105) doesn't help.
Granted, I'm probably doing this to myself by using raylib/OpenGL without any texture filtering or antialiasing.
Replies: >>236018
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>>236015
512*256 image resolution, regular 2m plane, orthographic camera with 2.825*X resolution. Now you can change X to whatever, to fit more tiles. 
Set camera to 000 xyz, 60x 0y 45z angles, press 0 to enter into "camera mode", select camera (borders) and press G to move camera backwards to like -10-15 meters, dosnt need to be precise. 
It should give you a tile which takes whole image perfectly. If you use cycles, it will have blurry border, so use eevee with 0 filter size, for pixel perfect renders.
>>235930
How so?
Replies: >>236150
>>235923
Your concerns are retarded just like you.

>>235926
But it's fun. I hope more people take part in this one even if it's just to learn.
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>>236084
What? You might as well be asking why bother doing anything at all, it's all for naught eventually.
Replies: >>236151
>>236150
I wonder this every day
>>236007
Probably a basic question but if these assets are still full 3D they should work with dynamic lighting, right?
Replies: >>236158
>>236154
I use 3d to sprites. While "originals" are 3d, they cant really be used as game assets, since you need to optimize them, bake textures, etc.
>they should work with dynamic lighting, right
Its a good question, lighting system is a big pain in the ass for full 2d games, because a lot of simple 2d engines dont support any advanced shading (beyond simple color modulation and palette swaps). 
On the other hand, if you use opengl or any other 3d engine, you can use sprites as if they are 3d models, you can pre-render normal maps, AO, and you can make proper lighting system out of it. But at that point you will ask yourself, why bother with sprites at all, and not make it full 3d?
Replies: >>236160 >>237050
>>236158
Oh that's pretty cool, I didn't know you could treat them as 3d models and achieve a proper lighting system. I ask because I always found 2d/isometric games with a lot of lighting work very beautiful and I think I'd want to try that out for myself.
I think one of the early C&C Tiberium games had well done effects where it looked like the fields where actually glowing and illuminating the surroundings but I think that was all more or less static.
Replies: >>236161 >>237050
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>>236160
You can check out Brigador, they do some fancy stuff. But most 2d games just settle for stuff like picrelated, where its just minor color alteration to see what is lit/obscured. 
>fields where actually glowing and illuminating the surroundings
I think they modulated colors, its not that difficult, to recolor something, via palette swap or simple modulation. And effects are "per tile" so it will be choppy, like in pic related. 
> I always found 2d/isometric games with a lot of lighting work very beautiful 
Its because a lot of talented people worked on these, it takes a lot of work. You can do a lot without shaders, with simple palette swaps, but its a pain in the ass to design, and its not worth it, since shaders exist. 
To know how difficult it is to work with palettes, diablo 2 is over 20 years old, and people still fuck up importing sprites into its palette schemes.
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>>236161
>Its because a lot of talented people worked on these, it takes a lot of work. You can do a lot without shaders, with simple palette swaps, but its a pain in the ass to design, and its not worth it, since shaders exist. 
>To know how difficult it is to work with palettes, diablo 2 is over 20 years old, and people still fuck up importing sprites into its palette schemes.
Well naturally as a 1 guy operation I would try to go the route of using the tech to do the work for me instead of trying to imitate the work of pixelartists with decades of experience, I am just unsure if I could make a 3D game look like, say C&C Tiberium Sun or Legacy of Kain Blood Omen or if that requires at least the 2d approach to mimic most of it. I mean 3d I suppose would be easier since that would enable me to use many more learning resources and employ physics if I want to, but still.
Replies: >>236165
>>236164
Good luck. Pre-rendering good looking stuff is easier than making game ready models of similar visual quality, but making simple models is easier still. So, unless you are like me, and want a shitload of enemies on the screen, use 3d, with simple models, and there are plenty of engines for that. 
This is why there are a lot of shitty looking lowpoly games, they are easier to make. Just use something which looks like it belongs to "style" and doesnt require any work to make, and optimize. 
But its up to you, cnc2 look is not that difficult to recreate, and most people are not pedantic enough to notice that shadows are all wrong, and stuff is lit in wrong way. Just look at your first picrelated, shadows of buildings are longer than shadows of vehicles, and shadow angle is basically random per object type.

What kind of game you want to make anyway?
Replies: >>236176
>>236165
>but making simple models is easier still
That'd be my hope, that a simple model with some shader trickery could enable me to have it look like this while offering the flexibility of using modern lighting and physics systems to have dynamic behaviors within the game world or plainly put: dynamic lighting sources and some "PBR"-alike works and an explosion can make a decently looking effect on the surroundings
>But its up to you, cnc2 look is not that difficult to recreate
I mean I think the sprites are still more detailed than a lot of modern "pixel" games so that would take some time, plus if I go the 3D route the objects of course will need some other information baked in as well. Now that I look at it Starsector kinda goes for a similar style, just that the perspective is top-down and not isometric in that case. In any case I hope to get to a concrete idea that is interesting enough to be motivating but not too hard to make.
>What kind of game you want to make anyway?
RTS, more specifically a fuse of the caravan concept of Homeworld where you take your cohort with you from mission to mission and C&C:KW's movable bases. I think that would make for an interesting combo where you can have a bit of mystery and exploration to every map instead of the Starcraft syndrome where you can essentially deathball every mission and then start over. It also potentially works with very low unit numbers so that's good for if I find it too overwhelming.
I guess you could also see it from the other way and call it a realtime version of XCOM/Battletech with basebuilding.
Replies: >>236180
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>>236176
>or plainly put: dynamic lighting sources and some "PBR"-alike works and an explosion can make a decently looking effect on the surroundings
The problem with that, is the fact that more details you add to the thing, the easier for it to looks like shit. Its easier to use imagination, when you looking at something simplistic, and its easier to make too. And that way get endless lowpoly pixelated shit games as a result, which try to outdo each other in ugliness, while thinking its what everyone loves, because its used everywhere. The uglier the better. 

>I mean I think the sprites are still more detailed than a lot of modern "pixel" games so that would take some time,
Just because some stuff has less pixels than other stuff, does not mean that image with less pixels is easier to make.

>modelling
You should check blender thread in trashchan agdg, but this guy makes models in 10 minutes, very similar quality to sprites in cnc 1/2, everything is 3d and game ready. He skips unwrapping, baking, remeshing. But realistically it would take a day, or more, to get one model, with animations done, but you will be able to reuse them later.
https://youtu.be/xgpgTJaS_qk?list=PLC7nmYI-cbT1JN7OADBFhSnpkV-odrMyW
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>>236190
Yup, google search and ddg have somehow gotten even worse this week. I can barely use it to diagnose problems.
Replies: >>236568
>>236567
It actually gave him what he wanted, the parser just saw "std" and a number and triggered the zero-click thing DDG does, just in case anon was a phoneposter checking a price in SEAmonkey land. I still use DDG despite the red flags because of the bang-shortcut to image search and every other "privacy" search engine just acts as a frontend for Bing and/or Google too, only difference between them how well they filter out duplicate results and how much bullshit they add themselves.
Replies: >>236949
>>236568
You're not using yandex?
FIVE DAYS UNTIL THE JAM STARTS
>>236160
Dorf RTS dev did a blogpost on the approach in >>236158: https://www.dorf-rts.com/dev-blog/normal-maps-and-lighting I believe factorio does something similar as well.
Replies: >>237374
>test Stardew Valley
>2% GPU usage at most no matter what I do in the game
>test my own game
>do literally nothing besides calling SwapBuffers on the window
>4% GPU usage
HOW
Replies: >>237364
>>237363
Below margin of error, and stardew is probably full 2d. 2d game can run at 2k fps, while 3d games have "minimal scene" and it used to be 2k vertexes, so scene with nothing and scene with 2k vertexes would take the same time to render. Its probably way bigger now. And they might cap framerate at different value, or use buffers. And its 2%, dont worry about it. 
In fact, you should do stress test, and see how much you can render, before you hit limits of your videocard, to know how much of a budget for rendering you have.
Replies: >>237365
>>237364
Are you a bot?

My program is doing only the bare minimum to run a window, there's no game, there's no logic, there's no graphics, I'M NOT EVEN CLEARING THE SCREEN, so how come it has twice the GPU usage of a full game that's scrolling the camera around a world full of animated sprites/tiles and lighting and has a UI with text and shit?
Replies: >>237366
>>237365
Do you use openGL or sdl2? If you use opengl, nothing on the screen takes more resources to render than a populated true 2d scene. 
>no logic
It means you have no code responsible for framerate cap, so rendering nothing at twice the speed will take twice the resources. Its 2 fucking percent, you have nothing, and you already worried?
Replies: >>237367
>>237366
>no code responsible for framerate cap
I mean there isn't any kind of logic related to rendering, I'm not drawing or setting up or configuring or initializing anything in the main loop.

>Its 2 fucking percent, you have nothing, and you already worried?
Please do this world a favor kill yourself ASAP. When my game has twice the GPU usage of a proper game even though I don't even have graphics, something is obviously fucked about my program. And rather than hypothesizing what might be the cause or shutting the fuck up if you don't know, you immediately started making excuses about why it doesn't matter and why I shouldn't care.

People like you are the reason why photoshop's font selector takes 10 seconds to open up and why modern websites grind even modern computers to a halt.
>>237367
Well, good luck trying to optimize nothing, and not listening.
Replies: >>237371
>>237370
I don't listen to retards. I assume you're one of those resident chronic advice givers who's always sitting here ready to jump in to "help" even when he has nothing of value or intelligent to say.
Replies: >>237374 >>237375
>>237367
That's nice and all but you haven't answered the question.
>>237050
Thanks I will give that a read. That said I think going into Blender and making sorta reference mini-scene is what I am going to do, or try anyway.

>>237367
>>237371
Instead of going on retarded tangents about how some anon is the /tech/ boogeyman try actually implementing a scene to render instead of freaking out over some usage percentage with a fake usecase that likely invokes odd behavior because it is an odd workload.
>>237371
Sigh, do you even read? Did you measure the FPS? Vsync on or off?
>>237367
I see the braindead nigger is back.
>>237367
buy a ps5 braindead monkey
>>237367
>I mean there isn't any kind of logic related to rendering, I'm not drawing or setting up or configuring or initializing anything in the main loop.
You're running your main loop with zero downtime between loops, maxing out an entire (hyper)thread on your CPU. The solution is to add in some logic that gives up demand for CPU time for a period - commonly referred to as "limiting the framerate"
So if you'd just used your brain instead of sperging out about "but I'm not rendering anything yet" you'd have realized anon did in fact answer your question.
If I see one more retard fedpost about modern firearms then I will kill them myself. With an aratech blaster rifle from over 5000 yards with a tri-light scope. Starting by shooting them in the knees to watch their amusing flailing and screaming from afar. Silly meatbag.
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>NOOOOO HK-47 we cannot possibly think for ourselves. The modern status quo must be preserved at all costs. We are all doomed and should just lay down and die

Statement: It is really quite annoying every time these pathetic meatbags and their cohorts makes their presence known. Clearly the need for Assassin droids will be a booming industry in the future. Especially ones with a blaster accuracy ratio capable of taking out drones coming in at high speeds.
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The Second /agdg/ GAMEJAM has begun!
You're all cordially invited to come and participate! Non-participants are welcome to provide criticism.
The current theme is Asteroids with a twist!
https://trashchan.xyz/agdg/thread/1082.html
Replies: >>241055
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Testing out Fl Studio again.ヽ(´ー`)ノ
I'm having an easier time now that I know the Sakura plugin exists.
>>237367
>why is my utilization high
>no I havent profiled
Use renderdoc nigger. 10/10 bait, mad me reply.
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>>231987
>isn't bottlenecked by 1 or 2 fags like that project in particular is.

It would also help to not have powertripping jannies lurking threads. All they do is censor and harass people when asking on topic questions. When the thread is literally for asking questions and talking about general gamedev.
Anon, please.
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I've got some low polygon mesh I want to add some more detail in while keeping the same shape, essentially retopologizing the object. However, the edges are very contrived and there's no clear edge loop I can add detail to.
What should I do? Is there a workflow I should follow? I've never properly modeled anything prior.
Replies: >>239331
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>>239317
>I want to add some more detail
What kind of detail do you want ?
You can paint details in a texture map, or you can model a high poly version and bake the details into a normal map and use in the low poly model.
Replies: >>239336
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>>239331
>what kind of detail do you want?
A higher poly version of the model. It's the head of one of the monkeys of PS1 Ape Escape. In essence I'm trying to build a mesh that's got the same shape as the low poly head that's got a smoother surface, like the heads on the render on the cover art.
The problem is I don't know where to start, or what exactly should I do. I'm debating whether to add new edge loops to edit the model or to learn retopology, in case retopology wasn't exclusively use to create low detail meshes.
Replies: >>239344 >>239418
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>>239336
Create a circle, decrease the number of vertices, and extrude.

>The problem is I don't know where to start, or what exactly should I do
You need practice and training, here is a list of free tutorials, I strongly recommend you do them in order. 

Donut - Blender Guru
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLjEaoINr3zgEPv5y--4MKpciLaoQYZB1Z

Well - Grant Abbit
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLn3ukorJv4vu6pnoAtivKf5Bo_6oQS0N_

Chest - Grant Abbit
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLn3ukorJv4vtpIA84xACRExW0F5IK5tEP

Sea Shack - Grant Abbit
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLn3ukorJv4vsIOjZoMToZusH2uOyjCu6G

Fantasy Tower - Grant Abbit
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLn3ukorJv4vvQ1Su1pam5vyTsUFOvxGLX

Robot - Ryan King
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLsGl9GczcgBuvF7hr9ZEuluIp0TDiLROB

Robot - Ryan King
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLsGl9GczcgBvuBDsj9dA1Aa_arhcJib-s

Blunderbuss - Grant Abbit
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLn3ukorJv4vvkmo-mNOsicGj097lsS5-s

Sci-fi Sword -  Stylized Station
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Ca3qRDfsf5g

Blender Hard Surface Modeling Tutorial -  Josh Gambrell
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=TJAmOGymyHU

Axe - Grant Abbit
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLn3ukorJv4vvDHfsQCACI3qVgdAMfP3-7

Base Mesh - sociamix
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=WlaMfIgS2ns

Character Tutorial - TomCAT
https://yewtu.be/playlist?list=PLok698dKQ_Hj10eKx73qPJRktkB1r8SN5

> learn retopology
That comes with experience and with references, give it time.
Replies: >>239418 >>239462
More resources.

>Beginner

Blender 2.8 Launch Pad (Chapters 1-15)
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6067068

Blender 2.8 Launch Pad (Chapters 16-20)
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6014732

Blender Mesh Modeling Bootcamp (Blender 2.79)
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5990386

Blender Fast Track: Sword in the Stone (Legacy 2.8) (Blender 2.80)
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5976624

3D Characters and Illustrations in Blender 2.9
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6055778

Polygon Modeling Boot Camp Vol. 1-3 - Dungeon, Dragon Axe, Shadow Helm (Blender 2.83)
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5965741

>Intermediary

Character Sculpting with Blender 2.9
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6013659

Blender Fundamentals Vol. 1-3 - Modeling, UVs, Texturing and Shading (Blender 2.82)
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5996155

Blender Car Series Vol. 1-3 - Modeling, Rendering, Cinematic Studio Lighting (Blender 2.90)
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6047343

BlenderCookie - Low Poly Character Creation
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3824187

>Advanced

Anatomy and Form in Blender 2.91 - Sculpting Course
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6052451

Complete Guide to Realistic Character Creation in Blender 2.83
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5995072

Character Creation in Blender - Orc Creation
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6085380
Replies: >>239418
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>>239336
Ignore >>239344 and >>239417. All it will achieve is making you feel overwhelmed.
Just watch this video and you'll get an idea of the process.
Replies: >>239462
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>>239344
>watch all of these 1hr+ 40 blender tutorials
That's not what I was asking for. I've been trying to figure out where the edge loops lie and where should I add them in order to make the mesh rounder. However, this isn't a human face, it's an ape. I don't know how to extrapolate the edge loops on a human face on a chimp with that huge muzzle in the middle of the face.
Besides, I'm using Maya, not Blender. From what I've understood it's what the pros used years ago and there are plenty convenient tools for modeling not present in Blender, if I knew what they were.
>that comes with experience and with references
No, no. There are tutorials for retopology, and Maya has sculpting as well as specific retopology tools to help you in the process. The problem is the retopology tools are only good for reducing detail on a sculpture/high poly model.
>>239418
>hehe funy faggot e-celeb
Suck a dick.
Replies: >>239465 >>239500
>>239462
Sculpt and retopo like a real man.
Replies: >>239998
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>>239462
Like this ?
Replies: >>239511 >>239930
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>>239500
I don't know anon, it's not quite right. Eyes are too beady and far apart, and the head looks too circular. Original PS1 head still looked like an ape's head if you deleted the eyes, specially on its profile.
I can give you the original mesh if you want to get closer but that would defeat the point I ever brought this up, and that's for practicing it myself.
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>>239500
> I've been trying to figure out where the edge loops lie and where should I add them in order to make the mesh rounder.
It does not work like that, with extremely lowpoly models, made for game engine, without quad topology.
Just use subdivision surface modifier. You might want to use bevel before subdivision, to keep sharp angles, if you need them. Dont bother with proper topology at this point. 
But dont expect to improve anything, if you dont know anything about blender.
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Does anyone here have any experience with Zbrush? If so, what's some decent learning material for it? I think >>239465 is right and Zbrush + Maya/Blender is the way to go modeling.
I've been scouring Rutracker and found and downloaded a few tutorial courses. Started with one which I assumed to be for absolute beginners, with some funghi man as the poster boy. The dude on the mic is a recalcitrant faggot with a thick accent who's spent 3 hours skimming through the UI alone. I'm going to put with him until the end regardless of whether I feel he's wasting my time.
Had to clip this other faggot here. I don't know whether his course is any good but he made an ass of himself with this introduction. What a fag.
Replies: >>239999 >>240745
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>>239998
>third pic
>nexttut
More like, nextnut.
>>239999 (checked)
GARFIEEEEELLLDDD!!!!
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>>239999
YOU DON'T DESERVE THOSE QUADS
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>>239999
It doesn't even rhyme you fucking animal.
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>>240046
ESL go home.
Replies: >>240052 >>240076
>>240050
>/toot/orial and /tyut/or are the same sound as /naht/
(1) shitstirring phoneposter eat a bag of dicks.
>>240052
But it says tut not tutorial so I say it "tuht"
Replies: >>240076
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>>240052
You pronounce nexttut as "next toot"?
Replies: >>240057 >>240076
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>>240054
Yes, that's exactly how the man in the tutorial pronounces it.
From what I can tell "tut" stands for tutor/tutorial, not tattoos or titties.
Replies: >>240060 >>240088
>>240057
>From what I can tell "tut" stands for tutor/tutorial
>nexttutor
This nigga for real?
imagine being so butthurt about a joke where literally 1 letter was changed
imagine not being a humorless autist that can't play into a joke and have fun because he's too busy figuratively huffing his ass fumes
>>240054
>>240053
>>240052
>>240050
>TOOTOROLLS?!
>>240057
>"zee brush"
>not "zed brush"
smdh
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Been focusing on stuff for later Nortubel chapters like some enemies and art for later characters.
But I'm still focusing on Grek stuff a bit and finished this enemy.
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>>240131
First time at a boss fight and did enough enemies I wanted to make.
Said enemy here is a guy that starts off insisible/invulnerable until he becomes visible to shotgun blast you and when you get to kill him, he sets up a bomb after death.
When I mistype SDL library functions as ADL I'm reminded of the regrettable existence of kikes.
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How much money could I make if I just remade Starbound except without all the bad parts, and sprinkled some fun Terraria-style combat on top?
Replies: >>240747 >>240772
>>239998
>Spoiler
14 mins of doing absolutely nothing
Replies: >>241744
>>240740
I'd give it a pirate.
>>240740
If you manage to pull it off, I'd buy it. Even if it was just single-player.

But I think the better question is- "would you -like- to make and play a game like that"?
Replies: >>240773 >>240780
>>240772
See, that's the problem, isn't it?
I want to play <insert game I like that doesn't exist>, but if I end up making it, I won't get to play it.
I won't get to experience it the first time I play it, I won't get to discover it secrets, I won't get to know how fun it is.
Because I made it. I know how it works, I know everything about it.
Replies: >>240781 >>243028
About tree fiddy
>>240772
>would you -like- to make and play a game like that
I just played Starbound (with FU because vanilla is unplayably boring) which is why I started thinking about it. It's one of those frustrating games where I constantly think "if this was my game I would..." because it should be so good but it just sucks in every conceivable way, and it would be trivial to fix all the problems.

It feels like I could make an amazing game just by making the same game without the stupid parts (like energy, having to eat food every 2 minutes, gravity accelerating your fall speed to 8000mph in 0.3 seconds, all the buildings being premade templates instead of procedurally generated, etc) and shortsighted engine architecture (like the entire planet unloading when you leave it so any kind of long-term automation is impossible). You could name any part of the game and I could give you several things that are wrong with it, I could sit here all day listing problems with every aspect and feature but I'll refrain.
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>>240773
>making the game you wish to play and making it be so successful that people will copy it for decades, just so that you can enjoy good games
>>237449
Only one week left, anon. Make us proud.
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I was so motivated and making so much progress but then hit one little snag and all of my motivation evaporated into the atmosphere.

I think I'm too autistic to make sandbox games because I overestimate how powerful hardware is and want to make something too perfect. I just tried to generate a terraria-sized world and it caused a bunch of 32-bit integer overflows, then I fixed it and it took a whole minute to complete generating even though all it does is apply a noise pattern on the whole map, and also uses like 3GB of RAM with just the tile chunks.

Obviously I can load and unload the chunks dynamically (which complicates things) to reduce memory usage, but then I need to come up with a way to generate the map dynamically (which complicates things) too, which sounds manageable enough until you want to generate something like a dungeon (which complicates things) because it needs to spread far away from the starting point. But even if I manage that, it doesn't change the fact that generating the world is still agonizingly slow and is only going to become slower if I want a proper map as opposed to random noise.
>>241528
Assuming you want to make a 1:1 clone of the terraria world gen, you can always store the world in a binary file each entry of the file represents a type of block.
>0: empty
>1: dirty
>X: whatever
Since you already know the XY size of the world you can easily load and unload chunks of the map based on the position of the character, as for the behavior of the block you will have to keep an index of the blocks loaded or you can use something like sqlite to load the corresponding data, don't worry about optimization until you get something you are satisfied with or good enough.
Some people have decompiled terraria, you can read the terraria source code its a fucking mess but its there.
Replies: >>241543 >>241547
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>>241528
Just use perlin+voronoy, lol. You dont even need to store it anywhere, it can be used on the fly, and you can always adjust resolution. You can even make map by overlaying chunks with each other, and flipping, inverting, shifting, whatever. People figured how to do it on 8bit nintendo, with Elite and its 256 universes. 
And just how many tile types you using? You are not storing tile data in integers, are you? Wiki says terraria large worlds are 8400*2400, which is 20m. How did you get 3gb?
>>241536
Yeah, just use binary flags.
Replies: >>241547 >>241706
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>>241536
>1:1 clone of the terraria world gen
I have no idea what I would want to generate, I just used Terraria map size as a reference because it's a real game.

>you can read the terraria source code
I can do it myself. Loading the map dynamically is the easy part, but the real question is how do you generate a new map on a toaster that can't spare 3 GB of ram for my game? Can't load the map dynamically if you can't even create it in the first place.

Also, Terraria world gen takes long time too, but I thought it was because Terraria has a spaghetti monster engine and I could make my game much faster, not because it just inherently takes that long to generate that amount of tiles.

>>241543
>Just use perlin+voronoy, lol ... it can be used on the fly
Assume you want to generate the dungeon from Terraria. You probably want to place the entrance somewhere and then draw out the rest from there. But now what happens if the player approaches the dungeon from below? The dungeon is going to not be there, and then suddenly generate on top of the player when they get close to the entrance.

There's 2 ways to solve that. Either you pre-generate important structures, or you pre-generate rectangles/boundaries where the important structures are and then generate them when the player gets close to the rectangle. Both (especially the second) are difficult because you need to, for example, know where the ground is so you can place the dungeon entrance in the correct place.

>You are not storing tile data in integers, are you?
What else are you going to store it as? Terraria has ~190 tile types so they need at least 2 x 8-bit uints for them (one for foreground, another for background), probably more so there's room for mods. And that doesn't account for the block shape (solid, slab, slope), painted blocks, nor wires/liquids which can overlap normal tiles. AFAIK Terraria's engine can't support much more liquid types, so I assume they can only spare a few bytes for those.

>How did you get 3gb?
That's my mistake, I forgot that I have an array of vertex data for lights in the chunks. They're supposed to be very transient and not stored into the map, but the chunks do need them while they're on-screen. Each 64x64 chunk is 491584 bytes, 425984 out of those (87%) are just for the vertex data of lights. That's definitely needed neither for all the chunks, nor at world generation, so I'll change how I store them.
I moved the light data elsewhere, now it only takes 330 MB for all the chunks in the map.

I used a stopwatch this time, it takes almost exactly 1 minute to generate the world, and it drops down to 29 seconds if I make a release build. I could easily parallelize this part and make it <10 seconds so it's not all that bad, but it'll get much worse if I add more to the generation.
>>241547
>background
Oh right, that is a thing. Regardless, its easier to store, since you can simply use noise to always generate it. 
Split world into chunks, and assume that 4 of them will be loaded. Assign global properties for each chunk, such as "has dungeon A", has biome B, etc, might as well use full kilobyte to store all the special stuff, including entrance to dungeon, and you can use low-res perlin to assign biomes and such. You can even overlap them, in chainmail pattern, and reuse chunks. 

Each tile is a set of binary flags. Depending on chunk properties they have different effects. You can basically store universal bits in chunk data. That way you can actually expand number of tiles to infinity, and store basic world in extremely small size. Terraria might use something similar with ores and afterTheWall stuff. Instead of having bit for "iron/silver" its has global flag for it.  
And you can store entire thing as png, with some lossless compression. Or you can use simple "next 10 tiles are the same as this one" compression. 
Either way, if its less than 20 mb for the world, it should be fine, even if its not perfectly optimal, you will remade it anyway, so its better not to waste too much time on it.
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>>241552
To summarize. Split world into chunks, and during starting generation make sure you have all the features you need, such as dungeons, rivers, special islands, etc. Assign them to chunks, or use procedural data to be able to generate them on the fly. Basically starting generation only makes sure the world is proper, you dont need to save that data, but you can if something is too difficult to procedurally generate per chunk, and just easier to store. 
Consider each chunk to be a collection of layers, which can be overlapped as much as you need. 
For example basic chunk will have few background types, such as none/dirt/wood/rock, ie 2 bits, but since they are generated, you can always generate them on the go. 
If you overlap it with some advanced chunk such as "player modified" you can switch from basic "only chunk metadata" to "basic chunk with 2bit data", and if player starts using advanced blocks, some fancy backgrounds, you can switch chunk again to "full range chunk", or even use palettes. Palette is probably perfect way to describe it, actually. 64*64 is 4k tiles, so odds are most of them will be the same tile, and a lot of them will be "next X are the same type as this one".
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>>241547
Ironically, you posted a pretty good answer to your problem yourself: your image.
At world gen you can generate a low res version of the map, then generate the full detail version of the map at runtime when chunks get loaded.
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>>241553
PPS. Integer is 256*256, so unless you use 256*256 chunks with each tile being unique, its more efficient to store tile data as palettes. If chunks are 64*64, you dont need (much) more than 64*64 bytes to store biggest possible chunk.
>>241552
I'm not actually that concerned about memory or storage space, especially after I realized 90% of my map chunks were useless lighting data. Loading chunks dynamically was always within my plans, and I can probably figure out dynamically loading/unloading chunks during world generation too.

Ideally I would want to generate the whole map as dynamically as possible so you can for instance hop between worlds/dimensions/planets/etc without loading screens. The biggest/only challenge is generating anything that goes across tile boundaries and can therefore cross into another chunk, because you can't really generate that on-the-fly on a chunk-by-chunk basis. Even the little things are problematic, Terraria does a bunch of smoothing and liquid physics on the terrain after generating it, you might get a jarring edge between chunks if you do it only within chunks but not across them. It gets harder the further it goes, so the dungeon is the best example.

>>241554
That map is full resolution, each tile is just a number until you want to render it up close. Generating only 1 out of 4x4 or something tiles could be useful for finding where the dungeon starts without having to generate the whole map, but you can't really extract a high resolution structure from a low resolution one, so you'd have to pre-generate the whole thing anyway.
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Also, I can think of many ways to pre-generate some dungeon meta information, but the difficulty is always how to generate something out of it in sections.

For example, you could generate a bunch of lines or bezier curves that represent the dungeon corridors and rooms (pic 1 related), but if I actually think about implementing the second part, i.e. generating a chunk which has a dungeon corridor in it, it's very difficult to make that corridor seamless and interesting since you're not aware of the contents of the whole corridor or where exactly the walls/floors of other rooms are. It's much easier to generate an interesting dungeon if you start from the entrance and go sequentially out from there while ignoring chunk boundaries.

Another approach could be to treat each chunk as a self-contained "room" (pic 2 related) similar to how Spelunky does, but even Starbound has more dynamic dungeon generation than that and it's dungeons are garbage due to how predictable they are. It works in Spelunky because of how constrained your movement/digging abilities are in that game.
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Think for example of this, how would you generate ONLY this chunk on demand? You'd have to generate only a tiny fraction of a diagonal floor of a corridor, but mostly only the ceiling, and only the top-left corner of the room. The connection between the room and the corridor is also incomplete. You don't have context about what's on the floor of the room, you only know that this is a corner of a room. And the chunk that generates the floor doesn't have context about how the roof was/will be generated.

It might help if any particular section was treated as one, so if you generate any chunk with a room, then the whole room with all the chunks it touches are generated. But then what happens with the chunk that has both a corridor and a room? The room extends to the corridor which extends to the next room and so on, where do you stop?
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>>241562
Voronoy. And just fit entire chunk into a single cell. And just generate "roads" from center of the chunk to the next one, ore predetermine coordinate, its not that hard. 
Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_tile
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>>241564
>>241560
>>241562
>>241560
Not sure if I am understanding your intent correctly but it sounds like you could use Wave Function Collapse in a deterministic way to generate full maps from lower resolution bases
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>>241577
The goal is that instead of pre-generating a dungeon when the world is created, you generate as much of it as possible dynamically when the player goes near it. Trying to fit the rooms/corridors into some kind of grid or pattern makes much more boring and predictable dungeons than placing them anywhere freely.

Here's my Secret Sauce™ Dynamic® Unrestricted© Non-grid-bound◕‿‿◕ Free (as in freedom)🇺🇸 dungeon generation algorithm. The only complicated part should be knowing how to connect a room into a corridor, either when the first of them is generated, or when the second of them is generated. Probably(?) want to create a nice entryway instead of just slapping them on top of each other and hoping for the best.

Event though the dungeon skeleton needs to be pre-generated, this could work in an infinite Minecraft-style world too, you just have to make it appear far away enough that it can't stretch up to where the player can see.
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>>241580
Also, that image kind of fails to communicate it, but the rooms and corridors don't even have to fit into the chunks that the line/rectangle is in. Any chunk that the room builder touches can just be generated and marked as incomplete.
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Just use voronoi+perlin, its deterministic, and generated per pixel. You can generate every tile, when player sees it (probably should not, but for the sake of argument). All you need to do, is just mix them together, and use varied scale for generation, ie mix together higher res stuff, with lower res stuff, it creates "organic" look, because it breaks uniformity. 

If you dont know, voronoi/perlin algorithms provide value based on coordinates, and they dont "look" at other pixels to generate value. F(x,y) will always give same value, it doesnt need f(1,1) to generate f(2,2).
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>>241610
PS. You can even make multi-layer world, with dungeon occupying same space as the rest, with just entrance(s) being connected, Build engine shenanigans what could possibly go wrong. 
You can pre-generate dungeons at the start of the world, than use floodfill to make sure that dungeon is big enough to be considered dungeon, and discard that data if its good enough, its just to make sure that world is correct. Worst case you can simply punch a hole to some other voronoi points, until its big enough. Or move coordinates a little, or cheat in some other way, deterministic or just as additional map data to be saved. Data chunks dont need to start at every 64th pixel, you can move them as much as you want, and just keep "this chunk is connected to [x] chunks" data. Or even turn it into a game mechanic, where player has to discover dungeon entrance "behind" the regular world. Hell, you can even make some chunks isometric/top down. 
Its not a competition to make "100% world generated pixel by pixel", you can cheat a lot with any kind of generation or premade stuff you want. But perlin+voronoy etc, is the way to do most of it, anyway. You probably will want some big arena room, no matter what, and its easier to just make a premade room, and place it via easiest algorithm into the world/dungeon. 

Oh, and another idea. Onion world. Where you have X tiles wide world connected on both sides, behind it the next layer with X/2 layers (or any arbitrary number), and so on. And if you worry that it will take too much space to save, just add collapsing as a mechanic. You can even make "underground" layers visible as background. And use different generation methods, including "just perlin" and "just boxes", because its okay to use something simple/obvious, if you showcased previously that you using it because you want to, and not because its the only thing you can use.
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>>241610
That's for generating patterns and terrain and natural caves/biomes, but not very useful for generating cohesive structures like dungeons. You can even make custom noise when you know how it works, like making sharp edges and rotating/skewing the noise layers.

>>241612
>multi-layer world, with dungeon occupying same space as the rest
People have wanted something like that in Terraria too, where you can build a house in the "background" and walk in front of it. It sounds cool, but it complicates some things, for example now you need 3D path finding, and it's hard to tell when there's a wall in front of you and when there isn't.

If the only way to go into the background layer are predetermined entrances, then you could do interesting things like locked doors that can only be opened through specific entrances, so you have to find multiple entrances to complete the dungeon.
>>241547
Some advice - one, ignore this guy >>241543 He thinks noise and procedural generation is the be-all end-all of game dev, and trolls every thread across every board with his generated shit that kinda, sorta, if you squint a little, looks roughly like what he says its supposed to be. Take his "voronoi+perlin" shit down below. It looks like nothing, it is nothing. It's not caves, it's not a dungeon, it's not interesting in the least, both from a gameplay and from a realism/simulationist perspective. Also wang tiles have nothing to do with anything you're trying to do here. Just ignore him; you have a decent grasp of the problems at hand and are already on the right track to solving them.

Let's address your issues one by one, shall we?

>>241528
>I hit a little snag and all my progress and forward momentum and motivation went poof
First off, understand that any programming/game dev project is really 95% planning and 5% doing. A lot of beginning devs focus on that 5% as their measure of "progress", when really, deciding what to make, defining and properly scoping the project, listing up all of the problems to be solved, breaking those down into actionable steps, making sure you have all of the tools and know-how to solve each, ordering and scheduling tasks, thinking about/mentally simulating both the parts and the whole, etc. etc. is really 95% of the job. Not to mention engine/library research, defining your audience, researching similar titles/competitors/the market space, etc. Hitting a snag in the actual implementation of your project just means you either skipped a step in the 95% planning/thinking part, or that it's simply time to switch between the two for a bit. It is not failure; don't let it affect your motivation or flow or whatever.

>>your other posts
>I want planets? worlds? to generate instantly
>hop between worlds/dimensions/planets/etc without loading screens

You can probably safely say that generating any play space of appreciable size that contains compelling, organic structures of any kind - for instance cave systems and man-made structures that "make sense" and are fun to play in, will take time. Whether that's 30 seconds or three minutes will depend on your algorithms, level of detail, programming language, processor speed, etc. but I assure you it won't be instant. Now, that isn't the end of the world, and you will run into these sorts of hard, real-world time/memory limits with anything you try to make. The trick is simply to hide this load time from the player, and I can think of plenty of ways to do that, but your game will need to be properly scoped for any of them to work. Some ideas:

1. If the player cannot change world parameters like size, available biomes, difficulty, etc., you could begin generating the world from the second the game starts. That's right, while you're showing the splash screen, the menu, while the player is deciding whether to click "new game" or continue from his existing one, you could be generating a new world in the background, discarding it if not needed (he clicked "continue"), or possibly even saving it to disk for whenever you do need a new world. Hell, you could even generate a new world during game installation and nobody would notice, then it really would be instant when the player starts a new game.

2. If you can't pre-generate worlds for whatever reason (world options, etc.), you can generate the bare minimum needed to drop the player into the world and let him play. Take your terraria screenshot with the dungeon you posted ITT. I can think of plenty of elements that can have their generation/simulation deferred until after the game starts. One being the dungeon, if you ensure that it is spawned a certain distance from the start location. Another could be lava chambers/lava flow simulation - the player can not possibly reach that depth within 1 minute of starting if he spawns up on the surface. Water flow/settling simulation could again, be done from top to bottom, so that visible bodies of water are "settled" by the time the player pops in, while water underground may still be moving around. Ores as well, these are usually organized by depth, with rarer, higher-level ores being typically found deeper in the earth. Do your ore spawning from top to bottom, making sure that ores potentially exposed to the surface or otherwise visible to the player from the start point are done before loading finishes. In terraria, the oceans are located at the far edges of the map, floating islands in the sky... you get my point. If NPCs/creatures do not affect their environment (building/breaking stuff, eating plants/each other, leaving guano, who knows?), then they could be spawned as you get nearer to them. Even if they do affect the environment around them, that could possibly be simulated in an instant, how much time to simulate being a function of the play time elapsed since world creation to time of discovery.

3. If you've got galaxies with multiple planets to travel to or whatever, generate them up-front as well. And, like I mentioned above, generate them all a little at a time, from most important (player start/landing location) to least important (deep/far areas), vs generating a planet to completion before starting the next. That is, if the player can choose to go to any planet right from the start. If he needs to spend time on the "starting planet" or whatever to build his rocket ship to go to the other planets then fuck it, you got all the time in the world to generate them.

I could go on and on but for now, I would give up any notion of dynamic generation as the player approaches and simply focus on generating fun, compelling worlds first. There is always room for optimization later. Don't leave players stuck with random, boring nonsense because you had to have <10s load times at this point in development. Horse before cart.

Will address actual generation in a follow-up post.
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>>241706
>First off, understand that any programming/game dev project is really 95% planning and 5% doing.
What garbage advice. Understanding a problem area requires experience which is done practically.

>listing up all of the problems to be solved, breaking those down into actionable steps, making sure you have all of the tools and know-how to solve each, ordering and scheduling tasks
This reads like out of some retarded 'how to be productive' blog post.
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>>241706
>any programming/game dev project is really 95% planning and 5% doing
Well I mean, this all happened because although I had plans, when I switched to the implementation part I realized it was way slower and more bloated than I thought it would be. There's a lot of things you just can't plan because you don't have enough experience with it.

>I assure you it won't be instant
I don't expect generation to be instant, but you can start generating/loading when the player is near the planet/portal/teleporter/whatever. As long as the generation is reasonably fast such that the player won't run into it before it finishes generating, it's effectively instant as far as the player can see, but the slower it is the harder this becomes to do, and something like 1 minute is absolutely way too slow which is what demoralized me for a bit.

I can see ways to potentially generate the world dynamically now though. Dungeon feels like the hardest example because it's the biggest, so if you can generate that you can generate everything else, like the various mini biomes in Terraria. The more I think about it the more useful that idea seems, you can basically create a blueprint for all the interesting things in the world without having to care about the small details until it needs to actually be generated. I also planned to add "cave diggers" into the world generation that create long diagonal caves (because noise generation alone can be pretty unpredictable, I think Terraria does something similar), those can be done the same way as dungeon corridors.

I don't know everything about world gen yet so it's hard to say if there's more challenges, but at the moment I don't see why not generate dynamically. You can't really generate "only the starting area" without dynamic generation either, unless the starting area is uniquely guaranteed to have nothing in it. The only real question I have at the moment is how to create liquid pools since they need to be settled, you wouldn't want lava to suddenly pour on top of you. I have some ideas that I could try though, for example when a chunk is generated, it tries to find a "hole" in the vicinity and then fills it with water/lava from bottom up, but gives up if it can't find a hole (for example if there's a cave and it can't find the bottom).

I'm thinking of using a voronoi-like system to partition the underground into different biomes. Using noise for this purpose is very unpredictable and hard to control, but voronoi would allow each biome to have a clearly defined area and somewhat consistent size, and also makes it easier to switch to a different procedural generation parameters (for example ice biome having less caves or something). Noise allows more complex biomes, like using separate moisture and temperature maps to determine what the biome is, but I don't have a particularly good opinion of that since it simulates realism instead of fun. I don't want to find a rare and valuable biome only to discover it stops after 10 blocks because it was at some edge of the noise generator.

>you could begin generating the world from the second the game starts
I've actually thought about that too: how soon can you start generating the world? I definitely want the game to be very configurable and for the player to be able to select a seed, so my current answer to that question is "when the player changes a world-gen setting". Factorio shows a preview of the map in the game configuration screen too. I don't mind a delay when you create a new game though, it's the waiting during gameplay (and to an extent, when the player opens the game and loads an old save) that's bad.

>There is always room for optimization later. Don't leave players stuck with random, boring nonsense because you had to have <10s load times at this point in development. Horse before cart.
I actually disagree with this. If I don't know the technical limitations of the "engine", then I can't plan forward what kind of game to make. For example if a planet takes 3 gigabytes of hard drive space and more than a minute to generate, then I can't just slap planets everywhere and let the player hop between them willy nilly because it's going to be agonizingly slow and will quickly eat your hard drive, especially if every planet around you starts generating automatically.

The dungeon generation idea at >>241580 for instance completely changes how dungeons and worlds can be generated because it allows you to switch from pre-generating things, to generating things near-instantly and dynamically only where the player has been, so it's not something you can just handwave as an optimization that can be thought about later. I'm pretty set on generating dynamically unless I run into some catastrophic problem that I didn't think of.
I just realized that creating biomes with that kind of voronoi pattern allows you to generate biome-specific structures too.

For example what if you want to create an ice dungeon? That means you'll need to know where the ice biome(s) are before you generate the world, otherwise you can't spawn the dungeon framework in the correct place.
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>>240745
>14 mins of doing absolutely nothing
14 mins of virtue signaling and beating around the bush because he was going to do model a chink.

In contrast, I've been following this other tutorial and this is what I've got so far in the sketching phase, up to the end of the 3rd module out of the 7 chapters there are. 
This faggots shows that he knows what he's talking about and immediately gets to teaching, even if his videos can drag on longer than they should. He made this recap at the end of module 3 as well just to show he's got a big dick.
Motherfucker charges $600 for his course. Granted I found about it on Rutracker, but this is insane for what amounts to a folder with a bunch of .mkv videos and some UI presets.
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Is there anything I can do in order to add the details from a normal map onto a model within a game that doesn't support them? Otherwise the models look embarassing without them.
My best guess is to turn the normal map monochrome and use layer modes to overlay it on top of the diffuse map to add detail. Otherwise I don't think there's any way to recreate any geometry that's not already on the mesh.
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>>241744
>>241850
>My best guess is to turn the normal map monochrome and use layer modes to overlay it on top of the diffuse 
It might be the easiest way to do it, but I think some image editors support normal map overlays natively. You can use blender and import textures as a plane and render it. 
Technically you are supposed to use bake function in renderer menu in blender, but results may vary, since you will need to place lights and shit on top, and do all the other annoying shit which takes too much time, and you have to redo it over and over again, because it looks like dogshit. 

Just do your overlay idea.
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>>241850
even if the engine in question doesn't support normal maps it might have bump map support, worth checking out before diving into the jank.
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>>241850
You can't create geometry that way, no. But the details usually show up by affecting the lighting, which you can recreate.
Open the model in Blender, apply a material with both the texture and the normal map applied, then bake the texture and lighting combined into a new image. Process is almost the same as baking a normal map, you can just type how to do that in your search engine of choice pretty sure it changes depending on version of Blender, but instead of bake type Normal you use Combined.

You do need to set up the lighting in the scene in a decent way, for characters think studio lighting for photoshoots. As little shadow from having a light direction as possible (assuming that'll be done realtime), but only darker bits where light has a harder time reaching. But that kinda depends on the situation, for e.g. a wall with bolts you may want to bake in more directional light.
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>>241868
It doesn't support either bump maps nor normal maps. Only other texture slot apart from specular maps is a nebulous field called "detail texture" which I've never seen any game in that engine use.
>>241867
>>241869
>use blender and import textures as a plane and render it
Then use that render as a texture in its place? I think you're onto something, I'm all ears.
>process is almost the same as baking a normal map
Alright, I assume I can look up a tutorial on that. Thanks, anon.
>as little shadow from having a light direction as possible
I like the deep shadows old models used to have in them, it adds a lot of attitude on an otherwise plain fabric/skin color. Haven't tried rendering anything yet so I can't tell if it's a good idea to try and recreate that effect.
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>>241882
Yeah, use the newly made render as the texture in-game.
And yeah, you can get pretty nice stylistic effects (like the walls in pic related) if you set up the lighting well, but at that point you're more doing art than solving a technical problem and I can't help much with that.
My advice was more because of the skeleton texture you posted, things can get pretty whack with self-cast shadows on stuff like that.
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>>241882
This guy is correct >>241869
This guy is wrong >>241867

The proper, and only way to do what you're trying to do is to open the model in your modeling software of choice, create a material for it using both the diffuse and normal maps you linked here, place your model in the default or most common pose (example being arms down at the sides or bent holding weapons, or maybe even an A-pose, not a T-pose), then, set up lighting that is representative of the (typical) in-game environment, usually a directional light from above plus a certain amount of ambient light. Try adding some ambient occlusion/GI as well if you can. Then, do render to texture to get the diffuse colors + rendered lighting on to one texture for use in-game. You will need to do a lot of experimentation with the lighting in your modeling software to get the look you want (may end up too dark or washed-out when vertex lighting is done in-game; you will need to compensate), but know it will never be as good/accurate as real-time normal mapping done in-engine (with multiple lights, lights from the bottom/sides, etc.). You will also want access to the animations/rigging data in order to set it in the pose that you want for the light bake - you may struggle without that. Good luck.
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>>241882
>Only other texture slot apart from specular maps is a nebulous field called "detail texture" which I've never seen any game in that engine use.
Is this Unreal Engine 2 (SDK, UT2K3/4 mod) by any chance?
Replies: >>241940
Thank you to everyone who participated in the Game Jam.
Demo Day 8/8 will be hosted on trashchan. Please prepare your best.
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>>241889
>>241911
Tried to do something in cycles. I'm not very familiar with it
>place your model in the default or most common pose
>set up lighting that is representative of the in-game environment
That sounds pretty reasonable. The arms would cast some shadows on the torso, since they'd be holding a gun. I'm not sure whether that's ideal, but if not I'll definitely try an A-pose.
>if you set up the lighting well
Case in point, I don't seem to understand lightning in Blender. I've set up a sun in the scene, moved it away from the model and applied some more strength to it. It doesn't do the model any favor.
Is there any source of lightning that applies global even illumination in the whole scene? The sun is neither even nor global, and the shadows are too harsh on the render.
>>241912
>Is this Unreal Engine 2?
Yes. I port stupid shit over to Killing Floor. Don't ask me why, I wouldn't be able to tell. The lazy niggers at TWI had 3 years to port the game over to Unreal Engine 2.5D to avoid this shit.
>>241940
Yeah I'm not exactly a blender pro either, can't really help you much there. 

>The arms would cast some shadows on the torso, since they'd be holding a gun. I'm not sure whether that's ideal, but if not I'll definitely try an A-pose.
This shouldn't happen with ambient light, as that doesn't come from any particular direction, it just affects all parts of the model evenly. It's not like it's projected from an illuminating sphere around your model. You should be alright. 

>light and shadows shitty
Sounds like blender alright. You'll probably want to turn the sunlight intensity down a lot, to be just stronger than the ambient light. Like the other anon said, you don't want the shadows from the normal map to be TOO directional, but at the same time a lot of details won't pop with just ambient lighting.

>Is there any source of lightning that applies global even illumination in the whole scene? The sun is neither even nor global, and the shadows are too harsh on the render.
Again, not that familiar with blender's renderer (I pretty much just model in it) but, I believe you need to enable stuff like ambient occlusion and global illumination at the material level. That may just be the eevee renderer too and not cycles, fuck if I know.

>spoilers
Fucking knew it. I used to map and model for ut2k4 way back in the day. Detail maps and cube-mapped reflective materials were the shit. I feel like that was the perfect balance between visuals and ease of creating assets for, before Doom 3 came along with its normal mapping and per-pixel lighting and we began the downward slide into photorealism hell.
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>>241940
>hard to set up lighting
My point exactly. I can only advice you to use bigger lightbulbs, 1m or more in size, since it reduces rendering noise. Also number of samples affects baking time, but also resulting quality. So the higher the number is, the better quality will be, in theory. But it takes longer to render, and as result takes more time for each attempt. But lower number of samples might cause shitty results, which would look okay with higher number. You can try switching from default interpolation of texture to "closest"/"squared" and try both of them. 
>Is there any source of lightning that applies global even illumination in the whole scene?
Might be in newer versions of blender, but as far as I know only regular lights(lamps, spotlights, etc) work, I guess you can try the Sun Lamp, but results may vary. Sadly HDRI doesnt work for baking, and it would solve 60% of problems with baking in blender. 

>mix shader diffuse
Use principled shader.
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>>241948
PS. I just remembered that blender had an option to see how much light textures have in viewport, but I dont quite remember what it was called...
Nevermind, found it. In renderer settings set color management to false color, and in viewport settings set it to material preview, and enable scene lights. It should looks like this, so you will see how bright every part of texture is. And when baking you need to set color management back to default value.
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>>241948
>Sadly HDRI doesnt work for baking, and it would solve 60% of problems with baking in blender. 
You sure? I just tried baking a combined texture using some .exr file as an image texture for the world surface's color, turned off all other lights, added a floor, and the resulting texture sure as fuck was influenced by the HDRI. Model's material was pure white, background was a forest scene, resulting texture was very off white, shades of green, and shades of gray. Same colors I get on the model when using the viewport shading preview. May be because I'm on a newer version of Blender though.
Don't mind the model, it's just some retopology practice I was doing and had in my recent files. I'm a programmer, I'm just slowly trying to learn how to make 3D models myself.

>>241940
As noted in the previous paragraph, you could try using some premade HDRI image for lighting, that's a low-effort, low-control solution. May need a newer Blender version than what you appear to be using though. 
But as I said initially, think studio lighting if you want full control: you set up multiple lights around a model, with varying levels of intensity and preferably indirect lighting. It's not a one click solution, but you have full control over everything. That's why I said it crosses over from technical solution to doing art.
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<I'm not very familiar with it-
Shit, I must've forgotten to paste a chunk of my post. I was commenting on how I couldn't make both alpha and normal maps work properly on the skeleton, hence the empty white area, and how there didn't seem to be any detail on the chest, but that might be given how dark the vest is.
>>241947
>ambient light
How do I set that up? My scene's only got the model and a sun.
>my point exactly
>sounds like blender alright
Well damn. Maybe I should ditch Blender for another program to render in like Maya or 3DS Max. I know TWI used a scene in either one of them to render those portraits on the characters.
>I used to map and model for ut2k4 way back in the day
Hey that's pretty neat. What maps or models did you make? We had a UT2004 gamenight around a year ago with a shitton of custom models, perhaps we used some of yours from 20 years ago. What are detail maps and how do they work?
>that was the perfect balance between visuals and ease of creating assets for
I don't know, can't tell you if I like UE2. It's got the ugliest lightning of its generation, and all games made for it are a shade of jank one way or another. I'm still amazed a game like Killing Floor came out on retail on 2009.
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>>241962
First try using newest blender, from the looks of your screenshot you use extremely outdated version. Read how to import hdri, delete default lamp, and try baking, it might work. 
And if not. Imagine you placing lights irl to take a photo from every angle. Use >>241950  to make sure that nothing is over-exposed or underlit, in fact it might be the most important point. Try 2 spotlights one in front to cover whole model, and one in the back, and a couple of circular lights here and there. Avoid perfect symmetry, and place light a bit higher/on the face level, and pointing a bit downwards. 
And adjust brightness to make sure it looks fine >>241950 . 
it actually worked quite alright, on first try, maybe I was just doing it wrong. Too bad none of the tutorials talked about anything beyond "press bake button to bake".
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I want to surround myself with people who are making games. Why doesn't such a place exist?
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https://eyeballtank.itch.io/project-nortubel/devlog/711334/07apr2024-some-tweaks-and-2-guests
An update to make the game less unfun, hopefully and also before the "main" update in which I succeeded at 2 boss fights.
These 5 images are part of the upcoming new setting.
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>>242002
Post on /agdg/ then. If that's not good enough for you the alternative is discord for the low, low price of your immortal soul and possibly also your penis.

Alternately you can take your demo to a game convention and get yourself an indie table. Midwest Gaming Classic just wrapped and while there was a lot of your typical indieshit, guess what? They made games. (You) haven't. There were also several actually interesting game demos which were fun and didn't look completely gay. I'll post about them later, probably.
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>>242051
> the alternative is discord 
What the fuck happened to the irc?
Replies: >>242053 >>242057
>>242052
Retards came who can't use anything without constant gratification and gay emojis and whatelse.
>>242052
What the other guy said but it's really that Discord combines all the internet points and dumbing down for zoomers that reddit did to forums with all the circlejerking potential of IRC. A truly lethal combination for the rest of the internet and I wouldn't be surprised if an MKULTRA type program was involved behind the scenes.
>>242051
>Post on /agdg/
I hope you're not talking about 4chan because 99% of that is nodevs shitposting. I don't want to sit in a thread all day sifting through 1000s of AIDSposts just in case someone posts something game development related. Not like I can post there anyway because the captcha doesn't work if I don't let it datamine my CPU and GPU information.

All other /agdg/ threads are dead. This thread has a couple(?) guys making 3D models instead of videogames, someone making a PS4 emulator (not a videogame) for some reason, and the only game being posted is this incomprehensible memeshit >>242047
There's hardly even discussion about game development/design/ideas unless I bring it up.

>discord
Discord isn't a game dev community. That's like saying "go to an imageboard".

>game convention
I said "making games", not "made games and are just advertising them". I want to blogpost what I'm working on in a place where everyone else are blogposting what they're working on.
>>242122
>I want to blogpost what I'm working on in a place where everyone else are blogposting what they're working on.
Follow gamedevs on twitter then.
>but twitter is gay
See my previous post for your alternatives.
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>>242122
I would assume he means the webring /agdg/ board on trashchan, formerly on the cafe (RIP). Per-game/project threads are welome there, as long as they're active and not just one-and-dones. Otherwise there's a progress thread if you don't feel like making your own. The nodev shitpost to yesdev effortpost ratio should be lower as well, since nobody is hanging out there looking for dopamine handouts, just people working on stuff or learning how to.
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>>242002
>>242122
You kind of have to use Twitter and find a few non-faggot indie devs if you want to follow people who are working towards achievable goals. Then again, your insistence on distinguishing between "making games" and stuff immediately adjacent to game dev like 3D modeling and console emulation indicates you are afflicted with a corrosive form of autism that will prevent you amounting to anything in life.
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>>242146
Proper discussion rarely happens on twitter, people just post screenshots of something juicy for attention. I guess I didn't specify that I wanted that, but I guess it's also better than nothing.

>>242149
>nobody is hanging out there looking for dopamine handouts
That would be great if anybody was hanging out there at all. If there's less than 1 post per day, I'd expect them to be progress or discussion-worthy posts, and for 0 of them to be asking what programming language or engine is the best or how to become successful.

>>242150
There's a reason drawfags have their own thread instead of posting here. Art is only gamedev related if you put it into a game, but for some reason 3D is treated differently and people act like 3D art is inherently game dev.

Same with non-game programming. There's a disconnect between people who are developing a videogame and people who are programming some tool, the only similarity is that sometimes both use a graphics API. I'm not saying he can't post here, but the things he does are too different for me to ever care about anything he's doing in any capacity, it's not even a tool for gamedev so I can't give input as a gamedev who might use it.

It's the same with nortubel dev, it's not that he doesn't belong here, but it's like expecting me to be motivated to participate in an art community where pic related is the only one posting art.
>>242122
Let's talk about game design then. 
I wrote a system that separates the game into game cores, core modules, game objects, game characters and object modules, I wrote this because the way Godot script system works balloons the fuck out the moment you try to make something complex, I don't have to write a large script inside a single node nor do I need to build a complex scene to store each script, and the Resource has a small overhead compared to the Node and it gets automatically delete when the reference count reaches zero.
My game is currently separated in 3 cores, Town Core, Dungeon Core and Gauntlet Core, GC is where the combat happens,  DC is where exploration happens and TC is where the protagonist buy new items, sell items, rest, deliver or get new quests, etc, I'm planing on adding two new cores, the Protagonist Core and the Profile Core, Protagonist core is where I will store player information, inventory, HP, Energy, equipment, quests, status effect, etc, and the Profile Core will store the user information, play time, achievements, unlockable, NG+ for that XYZ character, etc,
In the future I will port this system to C++ but for now its all GDScript, until I can kick most of the gremlins out of the system.

The reason why I don't post these things its because nobody fucking cares about system design/engineering, and my game still using programmer graphics, so there's not much to show.
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>>242152
post the other "autismX" pics, pretty please in pink
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>>242152
>autism6.jpg
>6
If there's a 6th one I assume there are some more stored in your computer. Can you post them?
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>>242167
>nobody fucking cares about system design/engineering
Nobody except me then I guess. That said I don't use an engine myself so I don't have much to say about it other than how silly it seems that people have to use weird tricks and workarounds to get the engine to do what they want.

I have global arrays of info structures which store static information about things (like enemy name and base stats), and global arrays of objects (like currently alive enemies). Then I just do things with them. Sometimes the object arrays are inside another object (like the enemy array is usually inside a world/room object), and sometimes objects have other object's IDs, but otherwise I haven't seen a reason to diverge from this pattern for any purpose that I can recall. Here's pseudocode:
enum ENEMY {
	ENEMY_NONE,
	ENEMY_SLIME,
	ENEMY_DRAGON,
	ENEMY__COUNT,
}

struct Enemy_info {
	bool player_can_stand_on_top : 1;
	bool contact_damage : 1;
	Vec2_u16 size;
	f32 speed;
	u16 max_health;
	String name;
}

struct Enemy {
	ENEMY type;
	bool alive : 1;
	u16 health;
	Vec2_f32 pos;
	Vec2_f32 velocity;
}

Enemy_info enemy_infos [ENEMY__COUNT];

u32 enemy_count;
Enemy active_enemies [123]; // Maybe use a dynamic array here.

void simulate_enemies () {
	for (u32 index=0; index<enemy_count; index++) {
		Enemy* enemy = active_enemies + index;
		if (!enemy->alive) continue;
		assert(enemy->type < ENEMY__COUNT);
		Enemy_info* info = enemy_infos + enemy->type;
		
		if (enemy->health < info->max_health) enemy->health += 1; // Slowly regenerate health.
		enemy->pos += enemy->velocity;
		
		switch (enemy->type) {
			case ENEMY_SLIME: { /* Do slime things. */ } break;
			case ENEMY_DRAGON: { /* Do dragon things. */ } break;
		}
	}
}
Sometimes I call into a more complex system, and sometimes the enum is replaced with a list that is loaded dynamically, but that's basically what all of my code "architecture" looks like.
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>>242175
>>242183
You asked for it.
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>>242175
>>242183
>>242185
This is all the ones I have.
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>>242185
>>242187
thank you
devs, take note: you make code the best game that's ever been coded, but you won't sell it without a good artist like these people
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>>242195
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>>242185
>>242187
>>242122
>>242152
Let me preface my post by saying that I agree with you on all points. I've felt the same way plenty of times; I understand the frustration.

>>Proper discussion rarely happens on twitter, people just post screenshots of something juicy for attention. I guess I didn't specify that I wanted that, but I guess it's also better than nothing.
This is a problem with all timeline-based/cyclical format sites, anything with a "feed" or "trending" or whatever. I'm talking plebbit, shitter, etc. Because content is always served by, or at least viewed by latest/"hottest", you have two negative patterns emerge. One is that older, valuable posts slide out of sight and are basically lost unless you know how to search for them, if they aren't actually gone after a few months/years. This causes a constant "churn" in the content - reposts and people asking the same basic bitch questions over and over again, and so on. It's tiresome. The other trend is gaming the system for visibility - "clickbait", "humble bragging", just plain making shit up to get your name or face out there for likes or to try to get in on the content monetization grift. So tiresome. /agdg/ and general threads can fall into these patterns, it's part of why I advocate for an /agdg/ board. While it can be a place to show off "progress" and ask really stupid questions, the general thread is simply not conducive to people getting shit done in the long run.

>This thread has a couple(?) guys making 3D models instead of videogames, someone making a PS4 emulator (not a videogame) for some reason, and the only game being posted is this incomprehensible memeshit >>242047
>There's a reason drawfags have their own thread instead of posting here. Art is only gamedev related if you put it into a game, but for some reason 3D is treated differently and people act like 3D art is inherently game dev.
>Same with non-game programming. There's a disconnect between people who are developing a videogame and people who are programming some tool, the only similarity is that sometimes both use a graphics API. I'm not saying he can't post here, but the things he does are too different for me to ever care about anything he's doing in any capacity, it's not even a tool for gamedev so I can't give input as a gamedev who might use it.
I hear you. I agree the PS4 emulator project should be its own thread. Guy can bump it when he makes progress, and people who are interested in it can keep an eye on updates easier that way too. Newcomers to the board as well, can spot it in the catalog easier vs the middle of a 500-post /agdg/ thread.

The 3D models =/= game dev bit is a bit more complicated. Making assets for games is not something someone just wakes up one day and does - it takes study and practice. So while it can be annoying to see, and I personally hate the procedurally-generated blender stuff the one anon does, you're gonna get it in any /agdg/ thread or board. The bigger issue, I believe, is that people, with no real interest in it, experience in gamedev, or any skin in the game whatsoever, will just drive-by post that it "looks good" and "keep it up, anon" without properly engaging with the poster. By that, I mean asking shit like "What is this for? Will this be used for your game? Is it just practice? If it's practice, what techniques are you working on? What are you trying to improve? What specs/engine are you targetting?" You'll find that if you don't hold peoples' feet to the fire, so to speak, that they will post the same shit for YEARS with no progress, and eventually come to dominate the thread/board content/culture. Trust me, I've seen this shit happen time and time again. Go look for the old /loomis/ draw threads if want a good example. This one guy posted toddler-tier doodles "based on" nude models for like two and a half years. Definitely needs to be quarantined to its own thread. Not per-poster, I mean a topic like "3D game asset creation" or something.

>It's the same with nortubel dev, it's not that he doesn't belong here, but it's like expecting me to be motivated to participate in an art community where pic related is the only one posting art.
Yep. Guy is free to post what he wants, and noone's gonna run him off unless he starts posting some real heinous shit like your pic related but, he really could use his own thread, for the same reasons I said about the PS4 emulator above. Any hobby board, no matter how niche, is going to have some diversity of thought and what people want to post/discuss. Take /tg/ for instance. I like a lot of teeg shit; I like TTRPGs, I like the OSR, I like miniatures/wargame terrain making, I like world-building. I fucking hate warhammer/40K. I just do, I'm not going to get into it. I just have zero interest. The only thing that makes /tg/ usuable for me is, that I can (mostly) ignore it by not going into those threads. And no, I'm not talking about "splitting the userbase" or being "afraid of opposing viewpoints/ideas" or "hugboxes and safe spaces" We all post in and engage with one another in the threads where we actually do share a common interest, and no one is the wiser. Again, this is a benefit to having a an /agdg/ board, even if you feel the PPH/PPD(lol) doesn't make it "worth it" to you, it at least supports a greater diversity of poster and reduces friction and frustrations between otherwise antagonistic anons.

Now let's talk about you a bit.
>I don't want to sit in a thread all day sifting through 1000s of AIDSposts just in case someone posts something game development related.
I know you said 4chins but it sounds like you could be talking about this thread too, and that's understandable.
>That would be great if anybody was hanging out there at all. If there's less than 1 post per day, I'd expect them to be progress or discussion-worthy posts, and for 0 of them to be asking what programming language or engine is the best or how to become successful.
We're there, you'd be surprised. And if there's less than a post a day, you could always make a post a day and fix that.
>There's hardly even discussion about game development/design/ideas unless I bring it up.
Please do.
>I want to blogpost what I'm working on in a place where everyone else are blogposting what they're working on.
What are you working on right now?
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>>242364
>x should have its own thread
I don't think any of the people mentioned need to go somewhere else or make their own thread, but when they're the only posters in the thread, I feel like I'm alone despite the thread having activity. There doesn't appear to be anyone here who's seriously trying to make a videogame.

Now, we could go deeper into psychology or whatever and ask: if this thread was more dead but more "on-topic", would it just die, or would it actually attract more gamedevs?

>/agdg/ board
The problem with that is that even if I can technically align myself more with that, if I ask a question or thoughts about something, there's a lot bigger audience here to see it and answer and discuss it and it's less likely to be the same 2 people every single time. Even people who just play videogames can have ideas or detailed thoughts about games and features and designs, I listen to a podcast where some really interesting ideas about game design are occasionally brought up even though the hosts aren't developers. I also don't need to come back a day later to see if anyone answered, that's too long of a gap.
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>What are you working on right now?
Experimenting with world generation. Pic 1 related is a raw noise pattern, and then a smoothing step added on top. It doesn't work at the chunk borders though.

I'm currently trying to re-think all my coordinate handling so it's less confusing. It gets confusing in places because the position on screen is different than world position, and it's different depending on if the world loops or not. A looping world can have a chunk visually at x=-1 but the actual data is from x=worldwidth-1, but if the world doesn't loop then the world data buffer coordinates need to be moved (an array always starts from 0 after all, no such thing as array index -1), but the world coordinate at that position needs to remain at -1 (otherwise you'd need to fix all the positions of everything in the universe, like portal destinations).

In the ideaguy side I'm vaguely thinking about remaking Frackin Universe as a standalone game (although most of my time goes to just playing through it for the Nth time with different rules trying to find a way to more it more fun). Going to planets for new materials and processing crap into other materials is really fun, but FU is just so painful because of how much it misses the mark on everything. Pic 2 is a visualization to help me organize my thoughts about tiers and progression, I'd want to condense the clutter into more cohesive and meaningful parts. I might literally just steal all the assets and content and make changes along the way.
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Here's all the planets in FU by the way. Large portion of them are useless and/or nearly indistinguishable from another planet.
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>>242371
>FU
who are you saying fuck you to?
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>>242373
Yo moma chickum.
>>242370
>smoothing step
But perlin already does that by default.
>coordinates
You probably dont need to use absolute world coordinates for anything other than chunks, and as a reference for player position (only used for saving and other meta stuff). You can load them at will. You need to keep at least 4 chunks loaded, each at least screen sized, but you can load more. 
You need to load world data for player to interact with, for npc to interact with, + maybe liquids, and to render it+map. NPC only need binary "can pass/cant pass" data, so you can easily keep all of it in memory (unless you want traps and lava damage and stuff). But player will interact with it to, so you want all interactive data for it, even if npc ignore most of it. 
Its actually might be a good idea to keep different types of raw data separated, since parsing will be faster this way, can even be offloaded on separate thread. 

Lets assume you have 8k*4k world. Technically you want to know how big your data will be, for cache purposes, but trying to optimize it too early is pointless anyway. Lets assume interactive stuff will take a byte per tile, so 32mb of data. It can be used for map as well, or probably, prerendered instead, since looking it up will take time, even if its just the color. 32 mb is not too much, but you will spend too much time reloading stuff from ram into cpu all the time, so its not really viable, and you probably will want to limit active parts of the world anyway. It might work just fine, but you probably should not keep the whole world in ram, its not like any entity would need to parse through all of it anyway. 
Depending on situation, you can either have square chunks or 2*1 as their size, to align with screen resolution. 4 loaded with full data for rendering, and at least 9 chunks with interactive data. Lets assume 128*64 tiles with 32*32 sprite resolution, which gives around 2k*2k pixel chunks, and weights ~1mb with 4 bytes per tile. With 4 loaded, its 4m to parse through per render, with a bit of wasted data, depending on resolution, but not too much. Still, you should probably aim to minimize wasted stuff, and adjust chunk size accordingly, and maybe 64*64 makes more sense, even if you have to load a few more chunks. 

Also also, there are 2 approaches, store stuff as continuous array of data, or store lists of stuff. For example, you would not want to store NPC/PC as part of map array, instead you will have a list of loaded npc, with their coordinates instead. And they could/should have floating point coordinates, instead of integer, trust me. (PC/NPC also could use global world coordinates.) Lists also have advantage when rendering, since rendering same texture 100 times and than another texture 100 times, is faster than rendering 100 textures twice (to simplify render calls explanations). Lists can be used to store chunk tile data as well, but that depends. 

TL;DR players and npc use global world coordinates(stored as floats/double). World is split into chunks of 2 types, non-interactive, such as stuff for rendering, sprites and such. And active data, which is used for pathfinding, collision etc. And chunks have metadata about connected chunks, and chunk offset, load-lists, lists of npc in them, etc. (and so you can have sides of the world connected, by simply defining side chunks as connected) And since chunks are loaded via looking up connections, you technically can have infinite size worlds.
Rendering chunks would simply use world +screen offset per chunk when rendered, and you can render them entirely. (Note light sources)
What kind of generally applicable things could you use to make your game more moddable? Obviously you want to put as much data into files and make various stats and parameters dynamic/editable as possible instead of hard coding them, but are there any design patterns or things you can do in programming terms to make your game more moddable?

I'm wondering what makes some games like Elder Scrolls and DayZ more moddable than other games, or will modders just find a way if they like the game enough even if the game isn't moddable?
Replies: >>242680
>>242670
The easier it is to mod, the more likely people will mod it. Quake moding is less popular than doom, because its more difficult. Same with nwn 1 vs 2, and nwn2 had worse scripting and less stuff available for moders, and it run like shit. 
You basically have to make artstyle easy to copy too, because most of your original assets will be used in mods. 
And the better game is, the more likely people would want to mod it. 

>tes
They used same engine for 20 years, it just easy to work with, its almost like retarded brother of gold source engine. And they released toolkit for it, to make more of it. And a lot of their games are "almost good, and just need a little bit of polishing", ie just a little bit shitty, to encourage people to fix it. Kind of like hobby DIY kits. 

You have to design for modularity, and you basically have to use ready-made/make your own scripting language. And "just use data files" is harder than you think, because you dont need to make any special scripting, and can just use regular language for it. 
lets say you want X. If you using c++, you just hardcode "do X" . If you want modularity, you have to code X (do X part), make it modular, look into all possibilities of how X can happen, and make scripting support for X to work. For example in diablo2 location names (acts, number of waypoints, a lot of other stuff) were hardcoded, because when you only have 5 of something, writing code support for it, when it can turn into 6 is not worth it, because for you its just a single variable. I think it took 20 years for diablo mods to have "you can now name zones". 
A lot of FOSS roguelikes are 100% hardcoded, because its just easier to simply use c++, since any moder can edit source code, and it doesnt require learning/inventing new language.

Additionally, you can release guides on how to use your stuff, and how to make assets just like yours. I am planning on doing exactly that. Soon™
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>>242680
Modding assets is the easiest part, and if you load something like item stats from a file, people can just modify that file and/or create new files to add new items.

Logic is where it gets complicated. I can imagine an event system where mods can add callbacks to various things that happen in the game and read/cancel/modify the result, but how the hell is it even possible for people to do things like overhauling the entire combat and animation systems in Skyrim?
Replies: >>242698
>>242689
>Modding assets is the easiest part
By "assets" I meant making new artwork, models, animations, sprites, visual assets. If you use highly detailed stuff, its harder to replicate, and make new ones, which would "fit in" with the originals. It got easier with PBR and "realistic" look, but its still pain in the ass. And assets which are shipped with game, are not the same as models which were used to make them. All of original sculpt, animations, and generated/hand drawn textures get baked into a lowres meshes. 
Back in a day, you even needed to worry about shifting your assets into a proper palette, since games used 256 colors. 
Even when making animations, you should look up which rigs every game uses, just so it would work out of the box, with imported stuff from other games. 
Basically follow "industry standards".

Also, just remembered, wasnt dayZ itself a mod? So maybe making mods, makes it easier to make a game, which designed to be modded/was designed like a mod.
Replies: >>242699
>>242698
>If you use highly detailed stuff, its harder to replicate
I don't think that's going to be a problem for any indie dev who doesn't have very skilled artists doing all the art. Even if you pull highly detailed art from an asset store, it's going to be a clusterfuck which allows modders to do the same and not have it look out of place. In any case I have 0 concerns about the moddability of assets.

>wasnt dayZ itself a mod
It's an ARMA mod, but it doesn't matter because that just changes the question into what makes ARMA so moddable?
Replies: >>242700
>>242699
>I don't think that's going to be a problem for any indie dev who doesn't have very skilled artists doing all the art
Yes. 
>it's going to be a clusterfuck which allows modders to do the same and not have it look out of place
But if game looks like shit, its less likely anyone would be interested in modding it, and more likely will be a shitty game, if you cant even make it look like it belongs together.
Minecraft for example. Artstyle might be a step below ascii, but it is consistent and easy to replicate, and as the result a lot of people make mods for it. The only intentionally shitty looking game is Cruelty squad, and I dont know if people actually play it, outside of jewtubers.
I'm not concerned.
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I ended up running into a complication with world generation after all: the surface. The map needs to basically split into the sky and the ground, but the ground must be both interesting and relatively easy to navigate. I notice that Terraria has several types of surface mixed together; there's flat areas, holes, flat areas with holes, triangular mountains, random bumpy hills, random steep declines, etc.

Changing the height is easy, but it becomes complicated when you want to make for example a mountain with a hole in it. Top right on pic 1 is an example of terrain that cannot be made with just a height level. You could use similar 2D noise as caves, but then it'll create nonsensical blobby floating islands and becomes too hard to navigate, pic 2.

The idea I'm currently thinking (pic 3) about is to create 1-dimensional mini biomes, each biome is at a specific height level and occupies several chunks up/down from there. The entire biome can then be treated like a dungeon room and generated all at once. I can use the surface biome's height level as a heuristic to determine if any given point in the world is above or below the surface, it probably doesn't need to be super accurate for most purposes anyway. If something like a house needs to spawn on the surface, it can be put onto a special surface structure list where they only have an X position, and the Y position is only determined when the surface biome at that X position is generated. Not sure how you'd connect a dungeon entrance to the surface, but you could probably treat the "neck" of the dungeon (which connects the entrance to the regular corridors) in a special way.
Replies: >>242842 >>242847
>>242836
It's probably not as complex as you make it out to be. The generation algorithm likely has a few separate functions that it randomly chains together: generate flat, generate hills, generate mountain, generate valley, generate wetlands, generate ocean, etc. and runs them from the player start point starting with "flat" and ending at "ocean" when the x-coord hits some set amount. That terrain is then "flavored" with various biomes (ice, desert, jungle, corruption) in a second pass, without the basic geometry changing. Tunnels, deep holes, dungeons and the like are likely generated in another pass, though I couldn't say in what order. 

Could be wrong though, since you find a lot of water in the jungle biome and none in the desert biome. It may be that the biomes are assigned to blocks first then queried by whatever function generates the base terrain. For example, hitting the desert biome could cause the surface generator to start making rolling sand dunes, but hitting the ice biome would make a bunch of icy crags, forest would be largely flat with a low chance of hills/mountains. 

Don't lean so heavily on noise for generation. Procedural generation is just that, generating something via a set procedure. Start thinking more in terms of the rules a human would follow to repeatably make interesting and believable terrain/game worlds, then automate that process.
Replies: >>242847 >>242849
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>>242836
>deep holes in terraria surface
I think they are overlays on top of usual generation. All caverns might be generated as separate level to punch holes of terrain generation. 
>>242842
Yes. 
>Could be wrong though
Its the same basic idea. They likely distribute all the biomes first, and "surface jungle" is just one of them. There are likely more internal biomes, and generation types used. 

But there are very few ways to make worldgen wrong, since its basically painting with math.
Replies: >>242849
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>>242842
>The generation algorithm likely has a few separate functions that it randomly chains together ... and runs them from the player start point starting with "flat" and ending at "ocean" when the x-coord hits some set amount
I mean, that's basically what the idea I proposed is, mine is just more clearly segmented.

Terraria is different because it generates the entire world before you can play in it. I want to be able to land on a planet, grab some ice blocks for my refrigerator or whatever, and leave without having to sit there for 5 minutes generating the entire planet first. So I need to be able to start from anywhere and generate only a small part of the map there.

I currently foresee 4 stages for world generation:
1. Generate rough information about biomes and their locations for the entire world.
2. Add "blueprints" (such as dungeon room locations or special caves or huge trees or mini biomes) into the world, blueprints are just rectangles and lines, not actually in the world.
3. When a chunk is needed for any purpose, generate the basic terrain, use the biome information from step 1 to determine what kind of terrain to generate and what tiles to use etc. This step may have multiple steps within it, for example smoothing >>242370
4. When a player is near a chunk, generate any blueprints that touch that chunk. This may cause other more distant chunks to progress into step 3 if the blueprint overlaps multiple chunks.

>>242847
Now that I think about it, it looks like they dig caves above the cave layer with the "dig a cave here" method, some of them just happen to go through the surface and give the appearance of an uneven surface. It may even be accidental and not an intentional "now make the surface weird" generation. Pic related. I assume the caves start from the top and go down, that way if the cave starts above the surface, it can also remove background tiles where ever it goes. These may exist underground too at all layers, but the world generation is such a clusterfuck that it's hard to tell visually.
Replies: >>242853
>the "dig a cave here" method
Meaning, they explicitly carve out a hole, as opposed to using a noise pattern and hoping for the best.
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>>242849
What you highlighted looks like perlin to me, not exactly what I meant by "punch a hole". The hole on the left of your picture is what I meant, something which looks like its overlayed on top, and uses "line" (or path) generation and not usual noise. Stuff like dungeon and such. While its possible to draw lines with voronoy, its a pain in the ass, and its way easier to simply draw a line between arbitrary (predetermined) points (easy to save too). There are ways to do it procedurally, pixel at a time, but its painful and unnecessary

>4 stages for world generation
Order is not really important unless its something which require previous step to be completed, and whenever a step could fail. For example, world not generating a dungeon, or a dungeon without path, because it could not fit it anywhere, or jungle biome being less than 400 tiles.

Either way you probably should outline all the properties you want for tile and biome to have first, and than think of how to populate them. Or you can make multiple generators first, and generate all the patterns you want, and see how you can use/combine them. In the end its noise+voronoi+lines/other shapes+advanced generation(such as fancy buildings)+premade stuff. And you can use anything for anything. There are infinite way to use them. Or make some other methods, as simple or complex as you want. 

You can even give them to player. For example, if player wants a planet with a lot of iron ore, he scans for it, and you can generate a planet where iron is either twice as "wide" of a noise range, or run additional step to generate it twice, or use different generation method entirely, like line-puncing filled with nothing but iron, which would be more fun and rewarding for player to find. He can even use compass, or "hot/cold" method to find it, since you can generate "distance to main iron chunk" to every chunk in the world. Or use a tool to sample ore, which will take a sample, mark its coordinates, and will require some time and station at his base to reveal how far iron is, so player would explore, collect, and maybe even triangulate deposit location.
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>>242853
It looks too specific to be perlin to me. There's a lot of caves that look like a bug flying randomly around and digging a cave around it.

>Order is not really important
How is it not important? It's going to be way more of a pain to generate terrain and caves and liquids somewhere that a dungeon already spawned, than generate a dungeon where terrain and caves and liquids already spawned. You can't pick tiles without knowing what the biome is, and you can't spawn something on the surface if you don't know where the surface is. There's a very clear and obvious order to almost everything.
Replies: >>242859
>>242856
Liquids, well, spawning them is not a problem, but its one of the things which require "settle in" step. But I dont see why it would be hard. 
>You can't pick tiles without knowing what the biome is,
>unless its something which require previous step to be completed

>you can't spawn something on the surface if you don't know where the surface is
You can use whatever you spawn to define the surface, and not the other way around. Its not real life, you dont need to follow some realistic way of doing things, its just numbers.
Replies: >>242861
>>242859
There's almost nothing that doesn't have a preference for some previous steps to be completed, which makes the statement "the order is not really important" pointless and incorrect. Liquids require the rest of the tiles to exist, and it doesn't make sense to settle cave liquids into a dungeon therefore the dungeon should be after both tiles and liquids. Tiles -> liquids -> dungeons is the most logical order.

It's also way harder to mold the environment to suit some house that's floating 50 tiles up in the air than just put the house onto the floor, and if you don't do it then it's shitty world generation if all your building and dungeon entrances are either buried or floating in the air.
Replies: >>242863
>>242861
>It's also way harder to mold the environment to suit some house
Its like saying that a+50 is way more difficult than b-50. Its just a variable. You can generate a world around the dungeon, you can place the dungeon on top of the world, you can do whatever you want. Biome around the dungeon can be part of dungeon, and dungeon can float in empty void. All of it is difficult as including if(F(xy)!=dungeon)
Replies: >>242866
>>242863
I truly believe that you've never worked on anything remotely similar to this subject, and/or don't understand at all what I've been talking about regarding generating the world dynamically.
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A couple neat little things I got from the noise generated surface example, these are the kinds of details I would want the world gen to create on purpose. The jumping thing you could make just by digging a hole beneath the surface and poking holes on the "roof". Terraria does the under cover thing too, but it always looks the same, should be easy to make it much more random and less repetitive.
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>extract sprites from Starbound
>look at a random armor sprite
>wait that filesize looks weird
>24 KB for a PNG image that has almost nothing in it
>run it through a PNG compressor for the heck of it
>3.12 KB
Turns out most of Starbound's image assets are ~2-8 times bigger than they need to be. I wonder how much of it's 880 MB asset file is space uselessly taken by badly compressed images.
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>>242933
From what I understand .dds files are raw pixel data with a set filesize per pixel unit. Even if it's a heavy lossy format it's fairly easy to render on screen, compared to a more complex file format like a .jpg or a .png.
I don't know about Starbound but decompressing textures can take a strain on the CPU. Compression for a file that's a few KBs in size doesn't sound terribly necessary for a game released in the past ten years.
Replies: >>242936
>>242935
The unpacked folder is only slightly smaller than the packed assets file, so I assumed it's the same stuff minus some database information.
Replies: >>242940
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Also some of them are much better compressed, so it doesn't really make sense to me. Like this one, same image for different armor is only 6 KB.
Replies: >>242940
>>242936
>the unpacked folder
So it's an archive file with no compression applied to. The game's only slightly larger than a CD, I can't see why the game needs to be compressed, specially since using uncompressed assets helps with performance.
>>242937
>same image for different armor is only 6 KB
Are you sure there's nothing else to it? Might as well read into the file format and clear your doubts.
Replies: >>242942
>>242940
All the non-image information is in JSON files so I doubt there's some weird metadata in the image. I also tried to disable the alpha channel in GIMP but didn't see anything weird hidden in the pixels.

I just looked at them with a hex editor and can see that more than half of the first image it is taken up by Photoshop's XML metadata which has nothing to do with the image, so it's wasted space in any case. The second image doesn't have it.

>I can't see why the game needs to be compressed
Don't start this fucking cancer with me. I can't see why you shouldn't compress the files if you can reduce the file size of the graphic assets by 5x or something. That said, only 15.3% of the folder is PNG files. 70.9% is audio.
Replies: >>242944
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Lot of these songs are really long by the way. Here's a 20 minute one.
Replies: >>242944
>>242942
>>242943
>more than half of the first image it is taken up by Photoshop's XML metadata
That sounds like an oversight, not poor compression. The devs must've forgotten to remove the data and never noticed it because it's just 24KB.
>don't start this fucking cancer with me
I can't see why the game needs to be compressed *even further. I wasn't suggesting 24-bit 192KHz .flac audio and 8096x8096 DXT5 textures for props are acceptable in any videogame. You've already said Starbound is tiny for modern standards, and judging from that .ogg file they've already tried to.
In any case, the games that need to look harder into archives and compression are 3D games with huge textures and audio files. The devs from Warband must've worked out those neurons really hard given how the entire game once installed weighs less than 1.5GBs.
Replies: >>242947
>>242933
Is that actually how they're stored internally or just what the extractor saves them as? Is the archive format they're stored in compressed? That would be much more efficient than decompressing PNGs individually.
Replies: >>242947
>>242944
>Starbound is tiny for modern standards
"Modern standards" mean that you can just ignore compression and throw 100 GB games at people because lmao and because normalfags will slop it up anyway. I'm not the only one who thinks that's fucking retarded, and it's disrespectful to waste the storage space and internet bandwidth of 100s of thousands of people for nothing. Also Terraria is a far better game with far more things in it, and is half the size of Starbound, so you can't call Stabound "tiny", size is relative to what kind of game it is. Starbound is 1.2 GB, 1.5 GB if you include both 64-bit and 32-bit folders.

You can trivially run automatic compression and/or metadata removal through the image files before you ship your game, but there's not much you can do with audio (although it's questionable if most of the songs need to be 10+ minutes long) so ultimately the total size of the game is probably mostly inevitable. 397 MB for music, 210 MB for sfx, 131 MB of PNG files. There's also 87 MB worth of JSON files which seem to use spaces instead of tabs and have spaces around every symbol, so they're probably 10-15% bigger than they need to be for no good reason too, there's comments in them so I doubt they're converted out of some other format.

>>242945
The original assets are just a single big ass .pak file, the game comes with an unpacker that pulls everything out of it. As mentioned, some of the images have Photoshop metadata so I don't think the format is being converted.
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>>242947
So is the Starbound .pak format compressed or not?
Replies: >>242949
>>242948
I don't know. The .pak file is 860 MB, the extracted folder is 857 MB.
Replies: >>242956
Starbound is pretty much abandonware, and they hired artists working for free, so lack of compression is not surprising at all. 
>>242947
>terraria is better
No shit. 
>JSON files which seem to use spaces instead of tabs and have spaces around every symbol
Its easier to work with that way, and a lot of programs cannot comprehend tabs. We just dont have the technology (not even joking). And no one in the world should waste his time trying to compress json files to save a few bytes of storage space, especially if the result might be packed into some other format anyway. 
Also who cares? Its 1gb game, you even have to complain about using 3 bites more than they should. You might as well start complaining about using long words, when shorter synonyms exist. 
I mean, game compression is dogshit these days, for example, completely empty unity engine project is 1gb of nothing. So complaining about wasting 3 bites per line of json file is retarded.
Replies: >>242952 >>242956
>>242950
>no one in the world should waste his time trying to compress json files to save a few bytes of storage space
You can look at any individual thing and say the same thing and then wonder why your game is 50 gigabytes. If you don't have a space-conscious mindset then they add up to a lot when you put everything together. 15% of 87 MB is 13 MB, you could fit in 2 new soundtracks for the same filesize if you weren't a lazy faggot about your JSON formatting.

>You might as well start complaining about using long words, when shorter synonyms exist.
Everything I've talked about has specifically been things that have no benefit or reason to exist other than developer's laziness and/or nigger-tier lack of caring.
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>>242952
>wonder why your game is 50 gigabytes
You think its because of using spaces instead of tabs? 
>developer's laziness and/or nigger-tier lack of caring
You think developers should spend time compressing their files, until literally not a single byte is wasted?
Replies: >>242955 >>242983
>>242953
>You think its because of using spaces instead of tabs
Yes, that's literally what I said. Change every 1 space into 1 tab and the filesize of Starbound would be -600 MB, you'd get more hard drive space every time you download it. Checkmate atheist.
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>>242949
No compression then, odd choice when you could just compress the whole thing and call it a day.
>>242950
>Its easier to work with that way, and a lot of programs cannot comprehend tabs. We just dont have the technology (not even joking). 
Is this some kind of python joke that went over my head?
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>>242956
>Is this some kind of python joke that went over my head?
Yes, also json libraries are just generally shitty, and have massive problems. 
>we know its a problem, we know everyone is asking for it, but doing it would go against our stated goals and principles
Replies: >>242966
I think i don't care about compression if the game is less than 3GB. But a game of 200GB of unreal engine slop shouldn't exist.
Replies: >>242960
>>242956
>Is this some kind of python joke that went over my head?
yes a black python just flew over my house too!
>>242958
I don't care as much as I'm making it look either. It's just when I see a PNG file that's 8 times bigger than it needs to be, I'm somewhere inbetween "come on bro" and "again?".
>>242957
>>we know its a problem, we know everyone is asking for it, but doing it would go against our stated goals and principles
That was funny though:
>I removed comments from JSON because I saw people were using them to hold parsing directives, a practice which would have destroyed interoperability. t. Douglas Crockford
<everyone proceeds to add comment support to their own implementations anyway so now interop is actually destroyed
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I'm shocked to learn how simple Starbound's tilesets are, Terraria's tilesets look like a nightmare compared to these and I think it's sloped/slabbed blocks aren't even part of the sprite. There seems to be 3 tile rendering methods, not counting a couple other ones that just do straight lines.

The simplest which most blocks use is just a sprite for 1 whole block, and then a separate sprite for inner corners. I assume that for any given tile, you take a 8x8 sprite from the middle of the blob, and if it needs an edge then you just extend the sprite to the edges of that blob, and/or add the inner corner on top. I have no idea what the process of designing these would be and making sure there's no ugly borders between them, they look like they wouldn't work at all but somehow they look very smooth in-game. I guess it ends up working partly by accident because of how few pixels there are.

The second is for sloped blocks, I'm not exactly sure what the logic is but it seems to be pieced together from a lot of smaller parts.

The third seems to be a more traditional "connect into these directions" method.

The main downside of these is that you can't choose where to make a slope like you can in Terraria, you just have to choose between sloped blocks and non-sloped ones. I really like the first method for it's simplicity and effectiveness, I wonder if you could somehow add manual slope support to it without making it massively more complicated. The biggest advantage of method 2 is that you can create diagonal shapes without leaving holes in the walls, I also wonder if you could create a hybrid of the 2 methods so you could create slopes where desired.
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On second thought, another downside of the first method is that you can't make a very pronounced edge. Take for instance meteorite brick from Terraria, if you wanted that red edge, you would have to make the tile overly "thick" and your character would stand on top of the blue part while overlapping the red edge.
Replies: >>243029
>>242952
>>242953
>>242955 (checked)
I saw a file for a Unity game and decided to use DuckDuckGo's JSON Validator, swapping space for tab for the hell of it. A length of 83,685 characters, size of 81.7KB, 2,782 lines before. 65,170 characters, 63.6KB, 2,782 lines after.  24.9% difference in size and 18515 spaces not needed. For running a file through a search engine's validator in a web browser. It's NOT about the displayed file size. It's about % reduction of file size and less characters used. This saves space and is less of a burden on an engine. Ultimately, it can go faster since there is less muck to wade through. That means a lot when a game, or anything, has thousands of files and hundreds of thousands of lines of code. I did that for some other files. The game would load faster and preform better. I absolutely hate Unity, this is part of the reason why. People just shit out unoptimized junk in a shitty engine
>15% of 87 MB is 13 MB, you could fit in 2 new soundtracks for the same filesize if you weren't a lazy faggot
This, or just save space so everything else is less burdened.
Replies: >>243031
>>242167
How much of an absolute clusterfuck should I expect from Godot?
>>240773
If it is a problem you could do something similar to Minetest and let other people make the actual gameplay while you only handle the engine.
>>242974
It only depends on what you have drawn. Simply rotating corner of a tile is faster than drawing new tile (by artist I mean, not rendering). Before you have anything else, you only need to choose tile resolution and work from that. 
>I have no idea what the process of designing these would be and making sure there's no ugly borders between them
You either just start doing it, and later fixing and adding missing parts, or just steal what you need from someone else, and its far superior method. Designing which tiles you need, while fun, is a bit annoying when you start adding more and more types you need. Unless you plan to invent something new, like pentagonal terraria clone, just steal from terraria. 
>>242981
You can use overlay sprite, on top of regular ones.
>>242983
>This saves space and is less of a burden on an engine.
Unnecessary whitespace in a JSON should only (slightly) affect the time it takes to load the file from disk, which is insignificant compared to the time it takes to parse it, which should be of little importance as a sane game would parse all those files once at startup and store the result in memory for the rest of its run time.
As far as storage reqirements go, simply zipping the files would yield far greater savings without compromising legibility nor ease or modding: hell, it can even improve performance if you zip assets (large+easy to parse, so I/O is the bottleneck) or tons of loose files (opening many files for read has a large FS overhead).
Also any of the above would be pointless for Starbound anyways since it has much much bigger engine issues, including serious memory leaks.
You're literally on the same level as boomers complaining about their son's games slowing down the family PC.

TL DR benchmark and get some real world experience instead of obsessing over micro-optimizations and whitespace.
Replies: >>243033 >>243054
>>243031
>which should be of little importance as a sane game would parse all those files once at startup and store the result in memory for the rest of its run time
lul https://nee.lv/2021/02/28/How-I-cut-GTA-Online-loading-times-by-70/
Replies: >>243034 >>243040
>>243033
>instead of fixing broken code, its easier to try to optimize json in most retarded way possible
Imagine hiring someone to optimize the game, and he comes with "lets make sure every byte is used properly, in each of our plaintext documents" idea. 
>game runs like shit, any suggestions?
>lets stop using spacebar, to save space and be more efficient
Taking a shit on company time is more productive than this. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ONXuyvZrw
Replies: >>243054
>>243033
>GTA:O
>sane game
And even then the shitty unoptimized parsing only ran once, which is why it went ignored for a long time (well, that and the fact most of their players are addicts that won't ever quit).
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>>243031
Nobody's saying that cleaning up the JSON would make Starbound optimized. The argument is that it's one of many wasteful things that have no good reason to be there bloating the game size.

If the game takes 5 seconds to start up and optimizing all the JSON and images would drop it down to 4.5 seconds, you wouldn't really notice or care about it, but you can't deny that 4.5 second startup is objectively better than 5 seconds and if you asked which one users prefer, literally nobody would choose 5 seconds. The biggest gain is filesize though. It doesn't matter for 1 program, but most computers have lots and lots of things in them. If I have 50 games installed and all of them waste 100 MB of space, then 5 GB of my storage space is wasted for literally no reason. I'd have to delete several folders of photos or 2 seasons of an anime for no other reason than developers being lazy niggers.

You can argue all day that it doesn't matter but when does it start mattering to you? This is exactly why games are 50 gigabytes now, because people thought it doesn't matter and it doesn't matter and it doesn't matter and it doesn't matter until we got here.

It's the same as webshitters thinking that 5% extra CPU usage doesn't matter (assuming they even care enough to measure anything at all). Not only are you you're assuming that your program/website is the only thing that ever runs on my computer and that my phone has infinite battery life, you're assuming that I exist in a void and am the only one wasting energy on it. In reality there's 10000s of people collectively wasting 1000 extra computer's worth of processing power and electricity on everyone's 5%s. If you "don't care" then you failed the developer's equivalent of the shopping cart test and should be removed from software development just like niggers should be removed from society.

You also can't "just zip it" because the game needs to access specific things dynamically. How do you think those 50 GB AAA games work on any computer with less than 64 GB of RAM? They stream in textures and music as they're needed.

>>243034
You're not supposed to "optimize your json", you're supposed to have habits of not being wasteful to begin with. This argument is a red herring though, if you really cared at all about optimization or startup times or whatever, you would compile the JSON into a binary format that the CPU can just blaze through and use that for release builds. It would take 1000 lines of code to make a compiler and a decompiler that modders can then also use.
>>243040
It didn't run once, it ran on every single GTAO loading screen, of which there are many. Every time you tried to do anything there was a several minutes long loading screen, and then it turned out the only reason they were that long was that they were parsing a humongous json file every time with an inefficient parser. How no one did anything about it until a player debugged their multi-million game for them is a mystery because it's not like the game is unoptimized in general; remember, it runs on 7th gen consoles.
>>243054
for many years my job was returning shopping carts to the front of the store in a very large/busy supermarket. There's literally nothing wrong with not putting your car in one of the return areas or the front of the store. just leave it between your car. you're no better than anyone else for returning it. the next person that parks often just grabs the first cart they see, especially if they have a kid and want to take them from the car seat and put them right into the cart so they dont have to carry the kid across the parking lot, or leave them unattended while they go get one. 

you can often put the 2 wheels on something like a curb so they dont budge. as long as you dont put it somewhere where the wind can take it and damage a car and youre not leaving garbage in it, you're fine.
I only return mine if theres no safe place to put it thats closer.  when we see carts collecting in specific areas it usually means they need to just add another return area. like sometimes a single parking space will get loaded. even though we hate it, leaving garbage in a cart isnt the end of the world either, it usually means stores should put garbage cans in their parking lots and throughout the store to prevent this. at the place i worked they gave free samples and they would always end up in the shopping carts. i complained to management about this and suggested not only putting the trash can next to the sample station, but to put them down because most people grab a sample and walk and eat, and by the time theyre done there's no trash can in sight.  they ended up putting trash cans before/after the registers and one at each cart return location. after that garbage in carts was pretty rare.
Replies: >>243097
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>>243054
>if a game is only 95% perfect, and developers think its good enough, they are bad developers
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>>243064
the op is european, estonian specifically for the flag. And there, there is no fucking big ass supermarkets like wallmart with kilometers of parking slots, so he is probably referring to something like a Lidl parking area, which is not that big.
>the next person that parks often just grabs the first cart they see
to grab the cart you need to put 1 euro coin or 50 cents inside, so most people returns the cart to get back their coin.
Replies: >>243098
>>243097
>to grab the cart you need to put 1 euro coin or 50 cents inside, so most people returns the cart to get back their coin.
Most people at this point have a round plastic chip the size of a coin, but even then they'd want it back when they're done shopping.
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>>243054
That's cool and all but where's your gaem?
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>>243067
>>243054
>ACHSHUALLY 4.99999 SECONDS IS LESS THAN 5 SECONDS SO MY IDEA IS OBJECTIVELY AN IMPROVEMENT
No, shut the fuck up nigger.
Your "optimization" is not only a colossal waste of dev time with piss poor returns, it is also nullified by ACTUAL optimizations such as zipping the goddamn files.
>ACHSHUALLY IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS 0.000001% OPTIMIZATION YOU ARE A BAD DEVELOPER
Post your ASM game then.
Protip: you can't, because you haven't written a single line of code in your life, you just parrot retarded eceleb memes.
>inb4 I TOTALLY CODE
Given that you think it's unfeasible to dynamically access files in a compressed archive, lolno.
Really, how did you think Bethesda's .bsa files worked?

TL DR Kill yourself poser.
Replies: >>243150
>>243136
How can Windows 10/11 be real if demos featuring real time ray tracing for the Atari ST exist?
Are modern computers such heretek they drive all the skilled programmers away or trannyfy them just by existing?
Replies: >>243159 >>243321
>>243150
You know 40k isn't real, right?
>>243150
>non-sequitur, buzzword-laden reply
And if you genuinely think you can get 640k raycasts per second out of an Atari ST (320x200 pixels at 10 fps) you really need to buy one of those by yourself and see what its actual capabilities are.
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