>>279526
>Maybe try Arx Fatalis, Gothic, Deus Ex, Thief, and System Shock (the remake and 2).
I will eventually.
>"Visual Novels with Weapons".
Eh, I think that's too far, but I get the sentiment. They're yappy, but I like visual novels and I don't get the feeling I'm playing one with the games we're referring to.
>However, I wouldn't put pre-Oblivion Elder Scrolls in this.
Why not? I played Morrowind on the original Xbox and I don't like that either. The setting and writing are slightly more interesting, but the gameplay sucks, as does exploring. That's the thing with it and Daggerfall. There's a disconnect between what you see on the screen and what's actually going on. Every time you swing a weapon, there's a dice rolling, but that's stupid, because for all intents and purposes, you're seeing your sword hit the enemy and even if there wasn't a diceroll, the combat would still be atrocious. These games only get appreciation because people buy into the world and they were basically novelties when they came out and scratched the urge for more player agency, but other than that, Daggerfall and Morrowind are pretentious garbage that have been artificially inflated due more to the player's ego than actual merit. Yeah, these games let you do more, but I don't care about doing more if the "more" sucks. I don't give a shit about looting a thousand barrels and then having to sell all the crap I've got. I don't give a shit about the story (which is overrated in both of these games) when it keeps getting bogged down by how shitty the rest of the experiences are.
>Not really a remake. The name was slapped on at the last second.
Right, but I didn't really know how to describe it.
>Those are puzzle elements fueled by exploration.
I wouldn't say BioShock has puzzle elements, unless you really consider freezing water or melting ice to be that much of a puzzle, but that's not a bad thing. Environmental puzzles help you interact with the environment, instead of just leaving it static. You could also put Tomb Raider in that category, even the new ones. The environment is very traversable and it feels like an element of the game itself. TES does nothing with the environment and it's essentially just a plain for you to fight enemies on. Even though I dislike Ass Creed games, that's another open world game that uses its environment well. Morrowind is just filled with empty boring spaces that add nothing to the experience except for demonstrating size and scope and Daggerfall dungeons are nihilistic garbage.
>ME's characters were everywhere for a while
I don't agree with that.
>and some of FNV's characters are still talked about
They're only talked about as a platform for their politics. House is the libertarian, Caesar is the fascist and things like that. It's more about what they represent than the characters themselves. Even in BioShock with Andrew Ryan, who was purely politics, he had much more characterization and his presence was much larger and distinctive. That's the problem with these games, is that there's so many NPC's that nobody really shines because 1: they're not that interesting and 2: they don't get enough attention to be interesting in general.
>If you mean something like Cloud, there's obviously no way any of these would have the sort of explosive popularity of FF7.
There's also Sephiroth, Tifa, Squall, Tidus, the chocobo and the Final Fantasy aesthetic itself is memorable and distinctive.
>Daggerfall and Morrowind are pretty good.
I'll just reiterate that I think they're overrated crap. They are and they don't deserve a fraction of the praise they've gotten over the years, but that's just my personal opinion. The problem is that they're fundamentally boring games on their own and your enjoyment of them is completely dependent on how much you buy into the world and I just don't agree with that approach. I think it's arrogant and self-important.
>Tactics?
Haven't played it, but that's not really what I meant because that doesn't fit into this subgenre.
>>279530
Why do you say that?