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What is the final document format? Not text file (unformatted). I am asking for formatted text document, with tables and embedded images. What is the final solution?

Proposals:
-ODF (.odt)
-Rich Text Format (.rtf)
-HTML
-DOC (.doc)
-DOCX

Considerations:
-is the format simple, efficient, small?
-is it open source, free, or at least without patents or some other shit
-is it supported by large amount of software? for import and export
-is it malware? has hidden metadata and other shit? complex and proprietary?
-does the format allow for huge documents?
-what the format supports? formatted text, embedded fonts, images, tables, embedded files, hyperlinks, what else?
-is it simple to open both for viewing and editing?
-are the editors of the format small efficient or bloated and buggy?
They all suck.
Replies: >>7465
>>7441 (OP) 
Where is latex?
Replies: >>7466 >>7468 >>7571
>>7441 (OP) 
Docx
Replies: >>7466
It's probably gonna be PDF with more editable features. Even if PDF is shit.
Replies: >>7467
where can i find an iso installer for MS word 2016 and 2013? i got a couple document VMs to manage cracked or untouched is fine either way
oh and is there a NWJS selfhosted equivalent to google docs i kinda like the UI and autosave but i dont want to register an account to use it
>>7441 (OP) 
Use LaTeX for math and large documents (and if you need more advanced/complex features). RTF is okay if you need to share simple text documents with people who have M$ Windows. For taking notes, you should use org-mode or markdown (and you can convert these to HTML, if you want to).
Replies: >>7472 >>7573
>>7442
>They all suck.
Yeah and so what? What can I do? I could create my own document format but it will only work with my custom software, no 3rd party shit will support it.
And why do I have to waste time developing custom format? Why nobody has invented good document format, nobody in the world of 6 gorrilions jews?
>>7443
>Where is latex?
You can propose format that aren't on the initial list.
But if you propose Latex then tell something about it, answer the "considerations" questions.

>>7452
>Docx
No arguments so your opinion is discarded.
Replies: >>7471 >>7472
>>7453
>It's probably gonna be PDF with more editable features. Even if PDF is shit.

PDF is rejected because it's only export format, not intended for editing.
Wait... but it is possible to edit it, in LibreOffice Draw. So should be considered too?

But on operating systems like DOS, FreeDOS it will be only possible to view PDF, not edit it. Need multi platform support.
Replies: >>7478
>>7443
>the h! format that ignores half of your commands 
Useful for scientific papers, shit for anything else.
>>7466
It's the most widely used format and the native format of the most widely used word processor. That renders allother formats  basically pointless (except for very niche use cases).
>appeal to popularity
Shut the fuck up shill
>>7466
See >>7457. Latex, markdown and groff are superior because they are text based and compiled. They can be checked into vcs, allowing easy distributed collaboration (think about using comment threads on a word document vs a managing a pull req or email patches). Compiled means the frontend can be changed as technology evolves. They can be easily generated by scripts and other programs. The usual shell and other text transformation utilities can be used with those source files. Grep, sed, all manners of powerful tools are available. They being text based and mostly human readable means any ide or text editor works. All these provide even more benefits with automated dependency tracking and compilation with makefiles. Try updating 10 word files given an updated reference list without horrid macros. References to stuff are placed to everywhere and there is no easy way to track them all.
Of course there are problems with Latex and others. Such as tables and placing stuff manually. Markdown has too many flavors. And nobody knows how to use groff, and no library.
Think about it, svg is the real competitor of word. As much as I hate xml (which word also is), svg is standardized. There are tons of viewers, browsers being the most widespread. There is inkscape. You can embed fonts into svg. Apparently you can javashit in it. There are multi pages: https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/multipage.html . All that's left is an editor made specifically for documents. I didn't even think about this before writing it. Since svg is text based, git diff still works and the results may be readable.
Inkscape can convert pdf to svg, so latex can become svg as well. Holy shit I am losing it.
Replies: >>7484 >>7542
You have to admit that a file format being very popular and used is a plus. You can share it with others and be sure they'll be able to open it.
>>7467
If you're running DOS on a machine powerful enough to view a PDF, you're doing something very wrong.
Replies: >>7482 >>7484
>>7478
>If you're running DOS on a machine powerful enough to view a PDF, you're doing something very wrong.
You can view PDF on any machine. You don't need high performance. Viewing PDF is not something real time like video games, where you have to process 60 frames per second or the game will lag.
>>7472
>SVG
Was about to suggest this, but it's still shit. All of these formats are extremely under powered. Latex, groff, word, etc. are all typesetting programs for skiddies and boomers. One requires eight fecking gigs of storage to put a letter on a page (perfectly,) and the others are either very limited or proprietary or both. SVG is very close to being a sane document format, but it sucks for editing simple documents in plaintext. HTML is better for this, but obviously very poorly designed, period, and can't do the complicated stuff. Of course you can embed an SVG in HTML, but that's madness. The main problem though, is that both lack a good way to embed external text assets. It can be done with HTML but the embed will just be preformatted ascii which will ignore any styling or formatting you attempt to give it. This is what the ideal document format looks like though, a high level system for combining multiple text assets, some of which are unformatted and unnanotated, and combining them into a document for viewing, ideally allowing compiling by embedding the assets directly into the document. I am not aware of anything like this existing that isn't shit. Latex does allow you to embed raw text, but the language is insane enough that I don't want to know how far you can go with that. (Not to mention the environment and error handling)

>>7478
>sharing with niggers
no
>>7472
>Latex, markdown and groff are superior because they are text based and compiled. 
How do you embed raster images into latex, markdown, groff?
Can you format text? Can you make tables?

>They can be checked into vcs, allowing easy distributed collaboration (think about using comment threads on a word document vs a managing a pull req or email patches).
Good argument. But RTF can also be checked into vcs, RTF is plain text based.

>They can be easily generated by scripts and other programs.
So can RTF, there are libraries for many languages that will let you.

>Think about it, svg is the real competitor of word. As much as I hate xml (which word also is), svg is standardized.
How do you get formatted text?
How do you embed raster images into svg?

>There are tons of viewers, browsers being the most widespread. There is inkscape. 
How about editors?

>All that's left is an editor made specifically for documents.
Cool, but I am not going to create one, I don't have time to waste. I want working solution that will let me edit and view formatted text, tables, raster images. In a single file.

>Inkscape can convert pdf to svg, so latex can become svg as well. Holy shit I am losing it.
PDF can contain raster images. What will Inkscape do?

Just tried Inkscape. Opened PDF. It imports text and raster images. But doesn't let you edit text like in text editor, text lines are like separate objects, not single multiline. Didn't try to save it as svg.
Replies: >>7545
>>7542
>can you format text
The purpose of those purpose is to format text.
>can you make tables
Yes.
>rtf can also be checked into vcs
>can be easily generated
It is then superior to binary formats. I did not exclude rtf.
>How do you get formatted text?
Yes, try inkscape.
>How do you embed raster images into svg
inkscape, all reasonable editor should be able to do this.
>working solution
Then you can also consider latex, markdown and others.
>What will inkscape do
Can you just please drag any raster image to an empty document and see what happens?
>imports text and raster images
>doesn't let you edit text
Use internal import, they spelt it out clearly.
>... Text is stored as text...
The white space issue is due to PDF being a format that's not supposed to be edited.
>>7443

This list becomes comparing apples and oranges if you suggest latex. It isn't a general purpose markup language. It is intended for typesetting and printed material (most often academic papers or textbooks).

>web browsers
>digital displays (dynamic page dimensions)
HTML

>office documents
>printed (static page dimensions)
>simple limited text effects
>optimized for productivity
.odt, whatever equivalent for MicrosoftWord, ultimately depends on what your company is using regardless of personal preference.

>books
>printed (static page dimensions)
>complex effects such as layouts specific to certain page numbers
>double-spread images and graphics
latex

You can still use latex to create office documents, but obviously a company wants to have the largest pool of job candidates. So office productivity steers away from latex.

If you want to digitally draft a document without caring about the target medium yet, use Markdown and translate it to another markup language like HTML for web pages or latex for printed media.
Replies: >>7578 >>7579
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>>7457
>For taking notes,

+ no hardware backdoors
+ no platform requirements
+ no power requirements
+ lightweight

- no copypaste function
- requires not having the penmanship of a monkey
- the only people who can use images are the ones who are good at art
- can't drag and drop
Replies: >>7577 >>7636
>>7573
I am currently using physical notes occasionally. But I only keep them temporarily, then I input the text into computer because physical notes:
-do not have encryption, everybody could steal and read them
-you cannot search 1000 notes for keyword
-you cannot easily resort notes, group them (ok - maybe you could, but I often have 5 different notes on single page, I would have to cut them into pieces)
-you cannot edit text, add new text to note
-each note has different font size, they lack uniformity

Digital notes are superior. Physical notes are only for temporary use, like when you don't have access to computer.
Replies: >>7636
>>7571
I don't know which scenario my use case fits in.

I have this situation:
-I have projects. Project can be anything, real life or computer or software development or anything.
-I often get new ideas about project, I create new notes
-sometimes I read old notes about project and modify them or add new stuff
-the notes for a single project are split into subproject/category if the project is large enough and has many notes
-some notes are large text describing something, some notes are tiny and they are todo item, one sentence describing a todo
-some projects have hundreds or thousands notes, some few notes
-some notes are physical, they contain text and drawings. I then try to move physical note into digital one, by inputting the text into computer. But what about drawings? I plan to make photos of drawings and paste them into document
-notes for a specific project are kept in a single document, or multi files if project is big. for example: project1document, project2doc1, project2doc2
-basically I want to have many notes about project or subproject in a single document, notes are formatted text and drawings, images. I want to to open the document for viewing and editing at same time, it has to be very quick, easy, efficient.
-the document is not intended to be printed like a book, it is for digital, computer use.
-sometimes I use search to find notes by keywords. Sometimes I cut all notes with some keyword and paste them into separate document.
-the document might be big, hundreds of notes and a lot of images

I am open to suggestions about how to store my notes and images. How to manage them, edit, search in them.
The current system is good and worked well, however the problem started when I planned to migrate drawings into the documents. This limits the document formats that could be use. And software too.
Replies: >>7581
>>7571
>HTML
HTML can only embed images as base64 PNG which is inefficient.
Oh wait... but why do I have to embed images into single file? Maybe I could just store each image as file on hdd and just use that in HTML document?
This would solve the inefficiency of base64.

But there is another problem with HTML. The faggots invented the jewish CSS. The style of document and formatting is not in the document but in CSS. But maybe that's fine? I could just create the jewish CSS. I could have one master CSS and use it for all documents to have one style.

And what software to use to view/edit HTML at same time? I cannot accept editing HTML code separately, then opening viewer. I have to view and edit at same time, visually.
Tried finding such software but couldn't find desktop software for this, only faggot websites in JewScript that pretend to be software.

>.odt
Seems better fit for view and edit at same time, than HTML. I doubt odt is supported in many software and platforms. What about DOS?
Also, odt vs doc vs docx?

>latex
I don't think this shit can be edit+view at same time, you write the code separately then view/print, right? This makes it shit.

>rtf
Weak image support, in theory supports JPEG/PNG but in reality most software display and paste uncompressed 24-bit BMP. The document will be huge and bloated.
Replies: >>7580 >>7581
>>7579
>And what software to use to view/edit HTML at same time? I cannot accept editing HTML code separately, then opening viewer. I have to view and edit at same time, visually.
These are complaints about the (lack of) available tools or software which doesn't offer a specific workflow you want and not actually about the markup language itself. It is also trivial to just have a generic text editor on one half of your screen and a your web browser on the other.

>>latex
>I don't think this shit can be edit+view at same time, you write the code separately then view/print, right? This makes it shit.
It works for what it is designed for: to separate presentation from content, so the author focuses on writing while the typesetting system handles formatting and placement based on user-defined rules.

Not sure if you are 12 or autistic.
>>7579
>latex
>edit+view at same time
entr, make and a pdf viewer that refreshes itself, eg zathura.
Why are you obsessed with view and edit at the same time?
>>7578
You may want to try something like https://getmicropad.com/
Replies: >>7693 >>7708
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>ask for final solution of simple and common computer problem
>do not get final solution
>solution doesn't exist

>computers and software exist for 100 years
>still can't solve most basic problems
>everything in computers is pile of shit without any design
>pile of shit glued together held by a tape

>also "web browsing" - viewing a text with pictures, requires 8GB of RAM - over 8 BILLIONS of bytes

>can't have formatted document with text
>can't read documents with images on the internet (web browsing)
>can't have non-backdoored PC and operating system
>everything is spyware
>everything is bloated
>everything is crap

>can't even fix that because humans are niggered piece of shits, there is nobody I could cooperate with to fix everything
Replies: >>7627 >>7631 >>7640
>>7626
Fuck off blackpill
Replies: >>7630 >>7634
>>7627 
Yet, it's true. Bump.
>>7626
>simple
>common
The problem is common, but not even close to simple. Why do you think storing and representing media is simple?
The main issue being different types of "document" requires different formats. To shove everything into the same format means a crap format.
Replies: >>7632 >>7641
>>7631
Simple (1990s vintage) HTML is sufficient for 99.99% of the world's information.
Replies: >>7642
>>7627
He's bitching but he hasn't bitched about markdown.
Replies: >>7643
>>7573
>>7577
>notebook/physical notes
Writing your own notes on a notebook is proven to make you remember them better. Also, I think you could use different drawers or folders for organizing your notes. But I think the best way to take notes (especially if the topic is hard) is to first write them on paper and then rewrite your notes again using computer.
Replies: >>7643
>>7626
>>still can't solve most basic problems
Computer can solve most basic basic, they just don't.
Replies: >>7643
>>7631
>Why do you think storing and representing media is simple?
Because it is. You analyze type of media, you split it into simple parts and store it (with compression or not). All complex things can be deconstructed into simple parts. Images can be deconstructed into lines, pixels, each color channel. Text can be deconstructed to letters. Even mixed media like formatted text or videos can be deconstructed into simplest parts.

>The main issue being different types of "document" requires different formats. To shove everything into the same format means a crap format.
Wrong. Different formats should be for unrelated stuff, like audio should be different format than plaintext.
But document formats? No. There should be two document format: plaintext (unformatted) and formatted text format.
If we had communism we could have one formatted text format. Brightest scientists could design it in some kind of competition and cooperation.

But we have jewish capitalism so we have 20 formatted document formats, all of them are crap, all of them are incompatible.

You people still haven't offered final document format for my needs.
Replies: >>7644
>>7632
>Simple (1990s vintage) HTML is sufficient for 99.99% of the world's information.
Well... it is possible to use it, but is it so great?
Formatting tags are very long, take a lot of characters. But maybe it doesn't matter because documents are small anyway and can be compressed if necessary.
Styling is done in place. Is it good? Or is CSS as separate file/block a better approach? CSS can be shared by many documents and is easier to change.
Images have to be in separate file, they cannot be embedded. The document has to be archived if you want to send it somewhere with images. Later HTML versions support embedded images but they are encoded as base64 which takes more space than binary.
Software? There seem to be WYSIWYG HTML editors but a lot of shitty crap ones, how do I find The Final HTML Editor?
>>7634
>He's bitching but he hasn't bitched about markdown.
Markdown doesn't seem to be view/edit at same time? You first write plaintext and formatting, then view/print separately?
How do you embed images in markdown?
How do you make tables in markdown? With fixed width fonts?
Does markdown support fonts? And other formatting?

>>7636
>Writing your own notes on a notebook is proven to make you remember them better. Also, I think you could use different drawers or folders for organizing your notes.
This won't work as I have over 50000 (50k) notes and they keep growing. Storing and organizing them in computer is the only possibility.

>But I think the best way to take notes (especially if the topic is hard) is to first write them on paper and then rewrite your notes again using computer.
This often happens. But then we have the problem: how to store notes in computer, what document format to choose, what editor to choose?

>>7640
>Computer can solve most basic basic, they just don't.
Because humans, jews, normalniggers are low quality malicious retarded piece of shits. We need to kill them. Won't solve all problems in the world if we don't kill low quality monkeys first.
Replies: >>7644 >>7645 >>7646
>>7643
>How do you ...
use a search engine
>>7641
>all complex things can be deconstructed into simple parts
Just because they can be deconstructed into simple parts doesn't mean it is easy. Otherwise, make me some nuclear TNTs right now for the new oven, or, write your own browser from scratch in a year.
You need to come up with efficient compression algorithms. For streaming media formats, it needs to be able to be parsed in stream or chunks. How do you define formatted text format? Is animation part of it? Is video part of it? Is "rich" audio part of it?
"Formatted" text just mean fuck all everything in the world into a single file. This line of thinking is wrong, people should not expect a single format to contain, embedded font, image, media, turing complete language and the kitchen sink.
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>>7643
Here you could use these.
sussy.jpg
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>>7643
>Because humans, jews, normalniggers are low quality malicious retarded piece of shits. We need to kill them. Won't solve all problems in the world if we don't kill low quality monkeys first.
you forgot to add "in minecraft" buddy...
>This won't work as I have over 50000 (50k) notes and they keep growing. Storing and organizing them in computer is the only possibility.
oh i wonder what this fucking many notes could possibly be about... considering the last paragraph in your post......
>>7581
>Why are you obsessed with view and edit at the same time?
>Why are you obsessed with view and edit at the same time?
>Why are you obsessed with view and edit at the same time?
WHAT THE FUCK AM I READING
This is what brain damage unix does to you.

1. I open document with 1000 notes about niggers.
2. I read some of them, scroll.
3. During reading some note I get some additional idea or I found something in note that I want to change.
4. I want to edit in place.
5. If I am unix nigger I am not allowed, I have to close the fucking note viewer, open note editor, somehow find the fucking note, edit it, close it, open note viewer, somehow find the fucking note, where I was.
6. After editing note #245 I keep reading I scrolling, I find another note I want to edit, note #312. If I was unix nigger I would have to repeat step 5, for every single note I want to edit even if it's one character change.
7. I also want to have two documents opened niggers.document and faggots.document. I want to quickly scroll and find some notes in niggers.document and then move to to faggots.document. On GUI view+edit editors it is basically selecting text with mouse and Ctrl+X or right click and Cut, then click on another window on tab, paste the text.
But not in unix niggers. There, on unix, it is a complex 100 step operation that requires 3 different programs and wastes 30 minutes of your life (if you already memorize stupid commands, if not then it takes 10 hours of reading nigger manuals).

Unix philosophy is retarded and wrong, it is for brain damaged retards that don't do anything productive or value their time, it is for losers, unix users are niggers.
Unix niggers believe it is superior to open and close application 100 times to do something I could on DOS/Windows/Amiga/Mac without closing a single time, just clicking and typing.

Unix niggers are losers that don't achieve anything as their retarded philosophy and crap programs won't allow to build anything, when I developed big things you still keep studying your nigger manuals to rename a file on computer.
Replies: >>7694 >>7695
>>7693
>told about entr + make + zathura
The only one with brain damage is you. That setup allows you to precisely edit and view at the same time. But you didn't listen because you are an underage nigger who doesn't know how to use a fucking search engine.
If you want edit in place, synctex. But you don't know this, because you don't even bother to look. You only dream about your big things while not even spending a percent of time to learn.
It is also perfectly ok to view the source while editing it. The language is readable and you can edit it while view it, not the result.
You are retarded and wrong. You think everything in the world should be catering to your needs while doing nothing to make it so. You moan about opening and closing application because you don't even know how to help yourself. There are tons of tools and library with live refresh of markdown produced html, pdf, image everything. Of course you will come here are yell about your inability to look up basic info and try things out, because typing out your shitpost takes less thinking and time to do actual things.
kys stupid nigger
Replies: >>7709
>>7441 (OP) 
Don't know about final, but I use org-mode for my notes (and configuration). Works well for my purposes. It can also be exported to other formats, but I haven't done that very much yet, other than a little bit to HTML.

>>7693
Please don't mention the language that begins with L and ends with p and that is related to Emacs, and a language related to both Unix and Emacs, or you're going to summon him.
Replies: >>7696
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>>7695
Forgot to mention the theme. I found out about the Leuven theme a while ago, and it makes org looks really nice. Normally I don't care much about themes, so I just used one of the defaults in the past, but it's so nice that it's worth mentioning. This is the dark version, it's pretty colorful. The light one is nice, but I have a bunch of floaters in my eyes and light themes make them a lot more noticeable.
>>7581
>You may want to try something like >https://getmicropad.com/
No, I do not want to try this shit, because it is a website, not application. The "desktop" version that they offer is a web browser that displays a website.
>>7694
>told about entr + make + zathura
Where is the setup.exe of this program to install it on desktop? Show screenshots so I can confirm this shit works.

>The only one with brain damage is you. That setup allows you to precisely edit and view at the same time. 
With formatted text, images, tables? Show screenshots.

>If you want edit in place, synctex.
With formatted text, images, tables? 

>But you don't know this, because you don't even bother to look. You only dream about your big things while not even spending a percent of time to learn.
I shouldn't waste my time to look for some shit. There should be a final and single solution to the formatted document view+edit, so we don't have to search and test many solutions but use the final one, it should be on all operating systems, installed by default, or actually, on a single final operating system, because there shouldn't be many systems. We need final solutions.

>It is also perfectly ok to view the source while editing it. The language is readable and you can edit it while view it, not the result.
No, it has to display formatted text, tables, images. And allow them to be visually edited, like copy/paste/drag/type.

>You are retarded and wrong. You think everything in the world should be catering to your needs
Yes. It should but it isn't, because everything is created by retarded faggots.

>while doing nothing to make it so.
I shouldn't do anything to get basic functionality. Computers exist for 100 years but still can't get The Final Formatted Document?

>You moan about opening and closing application because you don't even know how to help yourself.
Opening and closing application 1000 times is the unix way, unix philosophy. One application per simplest task. So separate application to view text, to edit text, to paste image, to paste table. This is the unix way.

>There are tons of tools and library with live refresh of markdown produced html, pdf, image everything.
Show screenshots and setup.exe as evidence.

>Of course you will come here are yell about your inability to look up basic info and try things out, because typing out your shitpost takes less thinking and time to do actual things.
There shouldn't be need to look up, there should be final solutions that are installed and one click away from you.
Also, you didn't prove that any solution exist, you just shout some stupid unix words like entr + make + zathura + synctex + markdown. But you didn't provide screenshots and setup.exe as evidence.
Replies: >>7716
>>7709
install gentoo
You should have build your own format rather than waste time talking with /tech/ and /unix/ niggers.
Replies: >>7767
>>7766
You should shut the fuck up rather than making a post of zero value.
AmigaGuide is smol
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