/tech/ - Technology

Hell,_It's_about_time.-_J6-3l3hCm0.mp4
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That took long enough, I'm glad to see this probably won't be another JPEG 2000 situation.

>>19124
Yeah, makes me happy. Finally. Just took years of fighting against Google with their fucking AVIF WEBP shittery.

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>>19116 (OP) 
>let me guess, you need more

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>>19128
SVG when? Imageboards supported Flash through its entire run just fine, and many now support PDF. We don't need to put up with jaggies.

>>19128
I crossposted over here like a faggot cuz zzzchan has so little traffic and was also unreachable for me at times. (Yeah I know crossposting is not cool)
https://kohlchan.net/int/res/28443423.html
Already talked about that in depth there.

>>19132
It's complicated. In an <img> tag it's safe but what if you open it directly under the source address or download it and open it again? You'd need at least an svg sanitizer. For reasons like this it hasn't taken off as a user content format. The rendering speed is also less predictable than with raster graphics.

>>19132
Vector graphics are soulless. They're literally what spawned/enabled flat abstract UIs and the corporate "art" style. Any pictures with at least 0.01% artistic value use raster graphics as Kami intended.

>>19150
Shut the fuck up, retard. Corpo shit has nothing no to with vector graphics existing.

>>19150
Vector graphics and raster graphics have different uses. All letters on your screen are vector graphics. Most icons too unless you're using Windows. How complex vector graphics can get at what size and speed depends on the format and techniques used. SVG is kinda shitty compared to binary formats. Lots of xml trash. It's just the best we have that is widely implemented.
However vector graphics fulfill a really important role and in theory can depict literally everything a raster graphic can. Flat shapes are just the most simple thing to draw. However it's the same situation with raster graphics and shitty lines, text containing color antialiasing (makes sense on screens where it matches the monitor rgb pixel layout but not in a .png that is displayed on different monitors and often scaled) or whatever.

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>more convoluted image formats with marginal filesize gains
No thanks.
If there's one image format that needs to be supported it's QOI. The spec is so simple you can't possibly fuck it up.

>>19153
>supported by nothing and made as a joke by guy who calls himself clueless
>anon brings it in jxl thread and is probably serious about it

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>>19150
You have absolutely zero idea of what you're talking about. If carefully used, even Flash's old capabilities of simple linear/radial gradients are astonishingly versatile, and most professional vector software since the late '90s has far more sophisticated mesh gradients (admittedly not supported by mainline SVG in browsers, though PDF does) that can replicate essentially any kind of photographic or painterly content in the hands of a skilled artist.
>flat abstract UIs
All of which relied almost entirely on incredibly janky and bloated raster assets at the implementation level, even on HiDPI modes in Mac OS 10.7/Windows 8/GNOME 3 at peak phone cancer. And this is still true of the latest Android/iOS.

>>19154 
>lossless raster compression
Literally the most worthless type of codec for the web. Anything it can compress well (that didn't originate from a vector workflow to begin with!) can be trivially autovectorized, anything that can't will not compress.

Oh, also

>>19157
This is a little different, the main goal isn't to unify multiple standards though it JPEG XL does that as well, but simply to upgrade the technology in any way whatsoever.

Web image formats haven't been updated across all browsers since WebP in 2010 (not universally supported in browsers until 2020), built on the VP8 codec from 2008. JPEG in turn dates from 1992, built around basically just the h.261 codec from 1988. Needless to say, video codecs in web browsers have advanced considerably since the 1980s vintage.

vector_feathering.mp4
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>>19159
>They're literally what spawned/enabled flat abstract UIs and the corporate "art" style
Some of that came from the hacky way SVG handled glows and shadows, which involved rasterizing the vector image into a bitmap and applying a gaussian blur to that bitmap. https://web.archive.org/web/20250814121344/https://rive.app/blog/how-rive-reinvented-feathering-for-the-vectorian-era is a pretty good article on it, from the perspective of some guys who rolled their own vector graphics format for a Flash replacement with an open source runtime but a closed source editor (sadly). Vid related is a demonstration of their vector feathering implementation that I ripped from the article.

>>19161
Yeah, that's disgusting. Don't use filters in SVG. They are raster based. Only use vector based features.
SVG wasn't even the first or only vector graphics format. At the time things went SVG it had retarded competitors like VML. I bet you don't even remember how bad things were. With no serious contenders SVG won by default. Maybe we'll get a better format one day. We can only hope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Markup_Language

>>19162
I mean, Flash was right there, they could've just sent that to the ISO the same way they did with PDF & OpenType, but whatever, at least we have something that works and all the browsers support it. Or, speaking of PDF, they could've done what the NeWS people were tinkering with back before X killed it, and just dumped the entire SGML/XML idea to replace HTML/CSS/JS entirely with PostScript.
>With no serious contenders SVG won by default. Maybe we'll get a better format one day. We can only hope.
I don't think a single "file format" in the sense of SVG or Flash, where you can right-click on it to save and look at in your DE's image viewer is going to happen. Instead, when exporting vector assets for the web, you now target a mishmash of SVG, CSS, HTML5 <canvas>, and 2D WebGL/WebGPU.

>>19165
I'm not sure how declarative Flash is. The interpreted nature of PostScript is still a problem. Constantly these fucking sandbox escape vulnerabilities. It's hell.

>Instead, when exporting vector assets for the web
Most of the time people save to svg or rasterize.

>>19165
I think fonts are still used for symbols on many websites.

>>19166
It'd be no worse than the current problems with JS, or various other VM languages like Java itself that support quite fine grained permissions. I think the tradeoff would've been worth it, to gain a unified, far more elegant and powerful system, also extending throughout the OS much better.
>I'm not sure how declarative Flash is
Excepting, e.g., ActionScript? Completely. On the subject of PDF, partly for that exact reason Adobe shifted both PDF and Illustrator away from PostScript in 2000, to a new completely declarative internal data format.

>>19168
Java got removed from the web for good reasons.

>On the subject of PDF, partly for that exact reason Adobe shifted both PDF and Illustrator away from PostScript in 2000, to a new completely declarative internal data format.
It's very possible you're right. I have no clue about the internals of Flash. All I know is that most of it is proprietary and hard to work with using third party tools.
It just didn't happen. Without making a formal open image format it's not something that just happens randomly.

>>19154
>supported by nothing
You mean like JXL?
Modem game engines support QOI.
>made as a joke 
You're the joke here, nigger. Stop lying.

>>19193
QOI? Not many, not natively.

Jpeg xl is support is already widespread. Browser rollout is soon. Full support by Apple and PDF Association. It's part of PDF now. Many Linux programs already have full integration. MS has an official Microsoft Jxl extension for Windows since last year in Windows store. They've just been waiting how things turn out. I expect it will become part of Windows soon.
Game engines support other formats with higher feature requirements like .hdr, so Jxl will naturally replace those use cases too.

casual reminder that farbfeld is the ultimate image format

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>How do we get imageboards to finally allow uploading .jxl?
I just added JXL support to Homurachan.

>>19308
Buy an ad, tranny

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>>19309
This isn't 4um, you know.

>>19310
It's also not the classifieds, tranny.

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>>19309
What?

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>>19312
He's a cuckchan refugee. He thinks there are ads to buy here, and that he can make you stop posting by telling you to buy them.

>thread about file format
>some OCD tranny running a glorified discord chat "imageboard" wonders how xhe can make it into an advertisement
>gets called out for shitty behavior
<"g-go back 2 4um"
Kill yourselves, interlopers. Cycle more proxies to make your dead tranny circlejerk appear more alive.

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<19314
You didn't call anything out: you mindlessly parroted a forced meme from cuckchan that didn't apply here.

<you didnt do the thing you just did because i say so ok??
Anyone with eyes can see this tranny invents reasons to advertise his board. Disingenuous, rotten mancunt.

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<19316 
Speak for yourself instead of letting forced cuckchan memes speak for you. Or better yet, talk about JpegXL and how you can get imageboards to finally support it. If even the homurachan autist can talk about that, you can too.

>>19317
>talk about JpegXL
Are there up to date comparisons of quality metrics for JXL vs AVIF and WEBP at different quality levels? What about size and encoding effort? I added upload support because I wanted to convert my screenshots without making them useless and I don't like the other formats, but I'm also considering switching meguca from webp to jxl thumbnails when jxl is stable in browsers.
>how you can get imageboards to finally support it
Patches would help. It looks like jschan handles file support in lib/file/mimetypes.js. Not sure if checks magic numbers elsewhere like meguca, but it should be as simple as adding image/jxl to the image set. You might need special case handling for animated jxl there and in file/image/imagethumbnail.js for webms too. I don't feel like doing the imo over complicated build and install of jschan to test the changes.

>>19314
>some OCD tranny running a glorified discord chat "imageboard" wonders how xhe can make it into an advertisement
It is actually normal and not frowned upon to talk about other imageboards outside cuckchan. In fact I myself have even crossposted on KC.
>>19316
>Anyone with eyes can see this tranny invents reasons to advertise his board.
Let him. Are you cuckchan's sharia police? I bet posting the word 8chan is still banned over there.

>>19319
>Are there up to date comparisons
The bitstream of Jpeg XL was frozen in Dec 2020 which means it can only improve.
We already knew back then in 2021 that Jxl beats all other existing image formats in everything.
Over five years have passed but they still do the "AVIF is actually better for super low quality trash because it turns into blurry mush instead of blocky mush" if you look up which is better.
Let me assure you: jxl is better in every metric. Both lossy and lossless.
Most of all it can load progressively like good old jpeg which is especially important for thumbnails.

>magic numbers
Yeah, if you're using numbers make sure to add both. There are TWO. Jxl uses a wrapper format depending on what it needs to store or not. Both are equally used.
Jpeg XL is supported by ffmpeg and imagemagick (see https://imagemagick.org/formats/ ). Shouldn't be too hard to add support.

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<cuckchan cuckchan cuckchan am i fitting in yet?
Faggot was very clearly using it as an excuse to advertise, sorry you're slow and think that's fine. He even deleted his previous post because he realized he said the quiet part out loud. I hope a dozen other shitty boards spam links on his. Retarded niggers.

>>19321
><cuckchan cuckchan cuckchan am i fitting in yet?
Me and him makes two people calling you a cuckchanneler. Shouldn't it make you think?
>Faggot was very clearly using it as an excuse to advertise
So what? I highly doubt "advertising" non-commercial projects is against the rules. Why don't you ask the zzzchan mods about it?

<board spam is ok because they arent visibly making money from it
Mouthbreathing newfag.

>>19323
Listen up you litte shithead. Not linking to other forums used to be a rule on many forums to lock in users. Imageboard users distance themselves from traditional forums by rejecting all their customs since forever.
If you don't like it maybe traditional forums with signatures under each post, avatars and a long list of "awards" on the left side are more your league.

Ample boards, past and present, weren't and aren't OK with other boards advertising on them. Don't let me stop you from talking out of your ass, though.

>>19325
A sage is not a dislike or downvote. Go to Reddit and farm karma there.

<reddit reddit cuckchan 4um reddit
It's like they made a pull-string doll out of a retard trying too hard to fit in on imageboards.

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<19321
<19323 
<19327
>cuckchan cuckchan cuckchan am i fitting in yet?
>Mouthbreathing newfag
>It's like they made a pull-string doll out of a retard trying too hard to fit in on imageboards
Ironic, coming from the guy who carried over a forced meme from another website without noticing that zzzchan doesn't even have ads.
Funnily enough, I heard through the grapevine that the Poke All Toads dev dealt with cuckchan's "buy an ad" schizos by buying an ad. Supposedly this only made them angrier, as it took away their ability spam "buy an ad" at anyone who talked about the game.

It's not lingo exclusive to cuckchan. It's just a trigger word which causes you to start autistically screeching about cuckchan.

>>19327
Okay, here's your dozen badges for each years you spend on imageboards.
>>19329
It is. I've never seen anyone write "buy an ad" on an imageboard before.

>Okay, here's your dozen badges for each years you spend on imageboards.
It's been a little longer than that, but I'm not some tryhard newfag posturing over the dumbest shit in defense of spam so I don't care all that much.
>I've never seen anyone write "buy an ad" on an imageboard before
Then you're the newfag. Problem solved.

>>19321
I said I added JXL support on impulse yesterday to meguca because I haven't worked on the site in a while and needed an excuse to do something. Since you're apparently stalking me, you can go check the current thread on homurachan and see me discussing that. I checked out this thread afterwards. I thought bringing up the site was relevant here because it's about spreading The Good Word of JXL.
>>19320
>Let me assure you: jxl is better in every metric. Both lossy and lossless.
I was kind of baiting conversation there, but I am interested in cpu time for encoding. The thumbnailer has been a bottleneck for image uploads in the past, so I don't want to drop webp and move to something much slower. Improvements in size and quality are nice but really important for our tiny thumbnails. 
>Yeah, if you're using numbers make sure to add both.
Did that. Meguca's thumbnailer uses magic numbers to ID file types and maps those to extensions and mime types. From skimming the source code, it looks like jschan only uses mime types.

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>>19331
>Then you're the newfag. Problem solved.
It's you who's spending time on 4cuck past exodus.

>soyjak
You just can't help yourself.

<Since you're apparently stalking me
I'm calling you a tranny faggot because you seek out opportunities to spam your shit on multiple boards. This isn't the only place I've seen you do this shit and I haven't gone out of my way to find it.

>>19332
>so I don't want to drop webp and move to something much slower
Higher compression often means more cpu time to spend. Compression isn't free but jxl is very fast and delivers a better tradeoff than other formats. At the same target filesize it's guaranteed to be faster with a single core. It's mutlithreaded, so if you have more than one core, it's always going to be faster.

>>19332
Actually why don't you just benchmark it? I bet it's absolutely irrelevant which image format you use you use for creating thumbnails in terms of resources unless maybe you use AVIF which is super slow.

I'm pretty sure when thumbnailing images most resources go towards DECODING the full image and downscaling it if the image in question is large.

>>19337
>why don't you just benchmark it
I wanted to rewrite the thumbnailer first. Currently it encodes a frame to RGBA with ffmpeg's C api, then passes the RGBA buffer back to go to encode to webp. I'd prefer to handle the encoding in C instead of replacing one go dependency for webp with another for jpegxl. I doubt there would be any real difference between chai2010/webp and e.g. gen2brain/jpegxl

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<19335
Talking about your own project when it's relevant to a thread isn't "spam," nor is it "spam" when he posts community streams in the right threads alongside other board owners. Thinking otherwise and posting "buy an ad" in response (on sites without ads no less) is newfag behaviour spawned by spending too much time around cuckchan schizos who believe every indie or /agdg/ game thread is made by the developer himself.

<cuckchan cuckchan cuckchan
No other webring board does this much self-promotion, you dense faggot. It's not even close.

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<19341
>cuckchan cuckchan cuckchan
Because you ignore the point: you told anon to "buy an ad" on a site which has none. You might as well say "yikes, that's a downvote from me" with zero irony and repeatedly shift the topic when anons call you a redditor.

<you have to literally have ad support to reply with "buy an ad" otherwise my autism will go into overdrive
The point of the message is to tell assholes not to self-promote. Keep deflecting to autistic screeching about "cuckchan reddit 4um" etc. because you have no argument. Ironically you seem to be the authority on what constitutes current year cuckchan so good job outing yourself.

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<19343
>resorting to "no it isn't" and "no u"
Too late, faggot. Your site's reputation preceeds you. The faggot in my previous example might as well accuse those anons of being redditors themselves for knowing what an upvote is.

<>resorting to "no it isn't" and "no u"
Continually screeching "cuckchan reddit 4um" on repeat like a skipping vinyl is a thought-terminating, dogshit copout itself.

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Boy howdy, do I love image formats. I sure hope other anons like them too.

>>19346
>when the tactics are innovative.webm

>>19339
I thought you were worried about speed. Then why use a wasm library? It will be slower. libjxl has a C ABI. Why not use that? Ffmpeg also supports jxl. If you use it anyway why not just let ffmpeg handle it?

>>19348
>libjxl has a C ABI. Why not use that? Ffmpeg also supports jxl. If you use it anyway why not just let ffmpeg handle it?
That's the idea. If I'm going to rewrite the code to handle the thumbnail encoding in ffmpeg in the future, it would be nice to see benchmarks of jxl, avif and webp to see if it's worth starting the work early.

>>19353
>it would be nice to see benchmarks of jxl, avif and webp to see if it's worth starting the work early.
You'd be better run a test with command line tools on your own data.