/tech/ - Technology

Technology & Computing

New Reply
Files Max 5 files32MB total
[New Reply]

my_name_is_erin_i_am_an_anglerfish--iEB-bHsx9A.mp4 (u)
[Hide] (4.7MB, 1280x720, 01:03)
Discuss methods to remove >systemd.
>>1 (OP) 
Instead of removing just get a distro without it in the first place.
Replies: >>5 >>118
This. But NixOS uses systemd by default and it probably wouldn't work well with alternate inits. GuixSD does use their own init and service manager.
gentoo-chan.png (u)
[Hide] (1.2MB, 1000x944)
Literally impossible. Especially with the upcoming wave of rainbow employees in Red Hat.
There's currently no known way of convincing people that converting GNU/Linux into Windows/macOS ecosystems isn't good.
Replies: >>7
You forgot to put the Rust logo on that image.
Replies: >>2424
Is BSD free of systemd?
Replies: >>11 >>12
BSD has BSD init. It's closer to something like Open RC than systemd.
Replies: >>13
systemd is only made for Linux. It won't work on BSD or other *nix OSes.
Replies: >>13 >>4289
f630b344c8f3d34ecb4c57be3048076eccede8df58bb5af22ed448c27e818c2e.jpg (u)
[Hide] (32.1KB, 640x481)
Might've sounded like a stupid question - I'm really just curious what the dangers of systemd and things like it are. 

t. Never used any unix or linux OS but am looking into it now that I've got my hands on a spare laptop from work
Replies: >>14 >>105 >>1748
It's GNU/Linux, not Linux.
the_very_hungry_systemd.gif (u)
[Hide] (4MB, 426x284)
Init is the first process started a Unix-like operating system when your machine boots up, and to some extent (exactly how much depends on your init system), it's responsible for all other processes which start up afterwards. Ideally you want something simple, both for your sake as a user and because simple software usually has fewer bugs and fewer security holes. And for context, until a few years ago most Linux distributions used SysV-style init which was widely regarded as a mess.
Now systemdicks is anything but simple. At absolute best its config files are supposedly less of a pain than SysV init scripts, which is the main reason distro maintainers adopt it, but otherwise? It's this horrendous clusterfuck which is not-so-subtly trying to take over the Linux ecosystem by shoving a bunch of unrelated shit into itself and absorbing unrelated projects. Not only is it an init system, now it has its greasy fingers in everything from logging and device management to DNS, printing, your computer's clock, boot management, and managing your home folder. All of these are interdependent in complex, very retarded ways, and they're also written by some legendarily shit programmers who are convinced they're hot shit. This also means systemd breaks in complex, very retarded ways, and more often than not its dumbass devs are too proud to admit any bugs you find exist until the entire internet and occasionally the fucking government screams at them.

So why does anyone use this piece of shit? That's...complicated. And it involves distro politics and lefty faggotry way, way more than it should, including the devs calling people who don't use systemd sexists and racists. The devs and systemd's fanboys also love to pretend that there are only two alternatives to SysV init: systemd and upstart, so they flog  upstart over and over even though no one's used that trash for years and hope no one notices that there's other init systems these days and that they're objectively better and way simpler than systemd.
moon_tux.png (u)
[Hide] (49.9KB, 265x373)
>calling people who don't use systemd sexists and racists
I was already considering switching to Devuan, but now I definitely will.
Replies: >>109
I was just looking at that as well, thinking about switching to it from Kubuntu instead of updating to 20 next year. How much of my shit will break without systemdicks though?
Replies: >>164
Note: most of the time systemd does "just work." But if it does fuck up for you there's a significant change your only recourse will be patching it yourself.
Thanks, anon. So can systemd even be removed? Something at a kernel level like that seems like it would be impossible to detach without rebuilding things from the ground up.
Replies: >>116 >>117
The whole point of init is that it's in userspace. PID 1 has special rights but you should be able to replace it with whatever and have no problems. Not that you should have to, because all init should be doing is reaping child processes.
Replies: >>117
As >>116 says, it's in userspace, the problem is that systemd likes shoving its tentacles in everything and its fanboys do everything they can to help this along. Distros which go full-throttle into systemd cancer can be hard to uncuck thoroughly, hard enough that just switching to a systemd-free distro is often the better option. It took Devuan several years to make sure everything worked without systemd, for example.
>Slackware's not listed in there despite being the great old one of distros, AND not using SystemD

Come on man.
Replies: >>175
>including the devs calling people who don't use systemd sexists and racists
[citation needed]
Replies: >>169
Differen't inits didn't break stuff for me when I used Gentoo + OpenRC and Void + runit. Not sure about Devuan as I haven't used it yet.
Replies: >>165
I know for certain that Lennart Poettering called anti-systemd people sexists in a Google+, can't remember if he called them racists in that post too but it wouldn't surprise me.
I'm not an authority on non-systemd distros. I though NixOS didn't have systemd but apparently it does. I just gave a couple of distros off the top of my head.

Could someone tell me why a regular use would need systemd? I've never really used it but OpenRC does absolutely fine. I start, stop, and restart services. What else does a regular use want? I can understand maybe sysadmins want something more standardised.
Replies: >>181 >>187
>I can understand maybe sysadmins want something more standardised
That's the point. Instead of maintaining several different options, the board that maintains direction of essential Linux software development chose to just give Poetteringware reign over the ecosystem to streamline everything. Sysadmin or not, systemdick will get shoved down your throat and you will like it. This top-down direction of events is also why other Linux software devs started making systemd components a mandatory dependency, resulting in shims and hacks from distros like Debian, Artix etc. I understand the sysadmin reasons for the change: things like special snowflake boot and service management in enterprise setups coded by retarded pajeets. But this will result in never being able to switch off the One True Init System, even if it becomes completely ridden by exploits and bugs. OpenRC turns into a viable alternative for absolutely everyone? Too bad, it breaks policykitd, logond, whateverthefuckd and the entire kitchensinkd. And come on you guys, do you really want to reinvent the wheel again? Just let Lennart take care of things :^)

The future of Linux is a shittier Windows, because of zero security in window management systems still, which fucks desktop users (X or Wayland, doesn't matter) and no incredibly long backwards compatibility support despite fucking over the flexibility Linux offers over Windows, which fucks server operators.
ClipboardImage.png (u)
[Hide] (823.1KB, 750x850)
Replies: >>186
Hoenstly, I don't hate systemd, the biggest issue is that it has become "standard" and retards have started to add systemd as a dependency for packages even when there's no reason it would be required. Live and let live.

if you want the unix way you should be using *bsd
Replies: >>208 >>1748
Doesn't OpenRC have a utility to convert systemd units to whatever mutant shell syntax it uses? It's not even about standardization, it's about freezing out small contributors so when something goes wrong you have to pay Red Hat to fix it.

Why would anyone want to use init system that includes stuff like (shitty) logging daemon, cron, sudo, bootloader, NTP client, etc. stuff that you don't need or even care about? The systemd developers downplay bugs (muh not a bug, muh wontfix) Also, remember when systemd developers tried to add their shitty and bioluminescent IPC (kdbus) into the Linux kernel? To make things even worse, IIRC, the only reason why systemdicks developers tried to push kdbus was that they were simply too lazy/incompetent to add some feature to systemd ("it should be called SystemD/Linux")
21fe079450d0d1f6d6d60aab97e29e52c891250f0f3cfd2d385e2c5129e7ea25.png (u)
[Hide] (152.1KB, 1375x772)
Replies: >>1760
dc7068f9e8a1346d05fd1e8a0880cc76288e941de4fc78936fcad85ab336dfa2.png (u)
[Hide] (905.3KB, 676x626)
Replies: >>258 >>270 >>1761
2.1.35* my bad
Replies: >>259
Why 2.1.35? 2.1.15 can be emerged without systemd and rust.
Replies: >>264
2.1.15 has an issue with audio playing that isn't rectified until I think 2.1.16. And systemd and rust is required after 2.1.16. And also a ton of gay ass extensions require more recent versions. But anything above 2.1.16 would be good for me because that audio bug is atrocious. I use void, for a while I've been running Arch in a VM just to use Anki, occasionally seeing if I can figure out how to compile a recent version without much knowledge.
What's your distro? I made a dependency tree for Anki and the offenders are, as you've guessed, QT5 packages. Namely, qt5-base and qt5-webengine. But that's because they've been compiled to work with your distro's init, i.e. they depend on systemdicked dbus, util-linux and p11-kit. Unless they snuck something in their Rust code as well, any non-systemD distro that ships their own qt5 meta package with necessary flags (or you compile your own if you're on Gentoo) should support Anki. If compiling is not your thing, there is, for example, Artix.
Replies: >>1904
You could prepare a separate installation of whatever distribution of GNU/Linux you prefer in a virtual machine dedicated to this purpose specifically which will have systemd so you can run anki in that machine, if you do not want systemd to touch your actual machine.
install gentoo
>systemd comes from redhat
>redhat not a free distro for ages
>suddenly things like debian forced into systemd
>even rapsberry pi zero has it when underpowered?

It's conspiracy tier bullshit and proprietary. Even if you don't know what it does intuition should make you question it's use. That and it came out late in the game, why suddenly did linux need this? 

Is bsd stuff even going to be  very usable at this point or do you have to be a super genius?
Replies: >>1751 >>4075
Depending on use case, OpenBSD is quite usable, it takes about the same level l33tness to use it well as in Linux. But all of them are pozzed, OpenBSD wasn't, freebsd is the original SJW-pozzland and OBSD was forked from netbsd for its dramas.
If there's one thing I hate about bsd os,it would be their documentation. Everything about it is a fucking mess and not helping especially when you're a new user.
systemd is eating up Windows these days. RedHat managed the EEE the inventors of EEE.
You think that's bad,now read this
>Deployed one of the most comfiest DE out there known as the CDE (Common Desktop Environment)
>Post It in AUR, and it is the only package available for Arch fag. 
>Slap it with hard dependent systemd.
>Tried to install it anyway but removed the make dependency with systemd
>Shit installed with completely broken package
I wish there's a program that can remove all these hard dependent systemd on software package.
Replies: >>1838
Can one of you tell me the exact reason to hate system-d? I seriously know little about it, and never had issues with it. Except for the bootloader, holy crap that thing is garbage.
Replies: >>1832 >>1838 >>1840
For me, systemd is over-engineered and requires lots of reading to understand it well when I already know enough bash. Also fuck Pottering and (((Redhat))).
Replies: >>1838 >>1875

What >>1832 said is a start for me.

The others are:
1. The people that are really singing the praises of this software seem to be very cultist-like people.
2. it creates a common point of weakness, when linux's biggest strength is that every single distro has elements that do different things.
3. It has the software-company issue of "fixing what was not broken just to give employees something to do".
4. the software is being engineered as a necessity that needs to be constantly run instead of something that can be run once, or run whenever/wherever/forever on the user's own time.
5. like >>1761 said, it's being arbitrarily applied to packages that have no need or reason to have it.
6. 95% of the linux-using population doesn't directly interact with systemD, and the people pushing for it are either stupid or (this is kinda tinfoily but logically-sound) paid by microsoft to deliberately sabotage Linux culture by creating a common attack point.
Replies: >>1875
It's a new approach that has no desire to accommodate anything that's not SystemD, written in an era of move fast and break stuff faggotry. And it's going to be controlling your system. I'm sure it's better than maintaining SysVinit scripts made by some Dunning-Kruger victim though, which is why it's being adopted even without pressure from RedHat. Aside from the points already mentioned, it just feels annoying to be constantly gaslit by monkey brain nerds. It's a vicious cycle of: you don't need X component of SystemD, just turn it off; so what if library Y now requires component X, the alternatives were unsafe and poorly maintained; asking library devs to maintain backwards compatibility is toxic, they do it for free you know; SystemD isn't eating into userspace, stop spouting conspiracy theories; you don't need Z component of SystemD, just turn it off; etc.

The best part of SystemD are going to be the minimalistic rewrites taking the rare good parts of it and making sure libraries compiled against it work anyway, like how some distros do it with shims but hopefully less painful.
Replies: >>1875
I see a bunch of faggots not discussing any valuable thing in this thread, lets chance this.

Lets talk about most based init of all, sinit. Not only is it minimal and follows the unix philosophy better than any other init, it is also written by based suckless devs. After several unsuccessful boots with sinit solely caused by my incompetence in linux i decided to cuck out and install openrc again. This is the last time i am cucking on my init. Post your /bin/rc.init, post your daemontools setup ( or don't https://github.com/nshp/sinit ) 

Replies: >>1866
>call others stupid
>huh duh based based based
Thanks. May give me a reason to move from EndeavourOS to Artix.
Replies: >>1897
To demonstrate what the good parts of the systems bloating up Poettering's shitty init are, here's a talk by an unironic furry tranny using a Vtuber avatar to give the presentation: https://christine.website/talks/systemd-the-good-parts-2021-05-16 I wish people stopped inserting their mental illnesses into technical discussions, worst shit ever.
Months later here, but it's Void. The Flatpak for Anki works so I'm just using that.
i watched it while masturbating
zes voice is very sexy
that low rumble gives me a tingle in my balls mmmmmm
Replies: >>1911
same, I think the right conjugation for xe is xir though
fucking cumming to xir right noe tbh
Creepy_Joe_Biden_Mega-Mix.mp4 (u)
[Hide] (5.1MB, 640x368, 01:26)
>a tranny furry killer-whale roleplaying autistic man with an anime webcam is going to tell you us anything
Dude lmao

I went to this guys youtube channel and he was a smart fedora 9 years ago before he got bought into societal cultural and social decay by getting POZ suicide cult'd, It's actually a tragedy. I feel bad for this idiot now fuck you nigger.
Yup, I can confirm I am cumming  to this right now
Replies: >>1923
Update: just cummed
>>1 (OP) 
There is completely nothing wrong with SystemD.
Replies: >>2063
Everything is wrong with SystemD.
tty.png (u)
[Hide] (3.9KB, 640x480)
For me the simplest solution was to install a statically-linked busybox and set that up as the init.  It's pretty easy because it uses the traditional /etc/inittab for configuration.  It's small, simple, and transparent, without all kinds of layers of abstraction and useless bullshit.
Then I disabled all the systemd crap, but left the packages installed that were dependencies for other packages.  This is Ubuntu 16.04 btw, so if I can do that here easily, then it must be possible with basically any distro.
There's a few bugs though.  Not in the init though, I never had trouble with that (unlike systemd that crapped out on me several times).  But there's a bug in the ash job control somewhere, I think.  If I use "less" to view a file, then suspend the process with ^Z, it locks up that terminal (have to kill the shell from another tty, or use Alt-SysRq).  But this is the busybox that shipped with Ubuntu 16.04, so it's and old version, and maybe this got fixed already.  I keep forgetting to try the newer ones, because I've been busy working on other stuff.
Replies: >>4291
>>1 (OP) 
But systemd is good though I like it alot.
tech troons are the best
I waant to suck the faeces out of this bitchdick so bad, and then fist his anus while giving electroshocks to his balls
Replies: >>2286 >>2287
Does this work ?
gaycaptcha.png (u)
[Hide] (8KB, 155x65)
Replies: >>2288
gentoo-chan_suffering.png (u)
[Hide] (1MB, 1000x944)
New systemd poz landed in Gentoo a while ago. Behold: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/tmpfiles.d.html
On first glance you may think that this is useful, but look at the z/Z option. It is completely useless (since the files are to be created in the first place) but has the nice side effect of resulting in a root privilege escalation if implemented the naive way because of symlinks and hardlinks, the latter of which can't be easily worked around. Systemd of course gets around that by reimplementing chown from scratch and using Linux-specific hacks, which sys-apps/opentmpfiles can't do.

So the official party line is that opentmpfiles is now Deprecated™ and you're to use sys-apps/systemd-tmpfiles. Don't worry goy, it's merely a standalone program, so what if you need the fuckhuge systemd source tree for it? :^) Expect some pilpul along the lines of
>what's one more systemd "standalone" thing goy, you already have the source tree after all :^)
in the coming months. I personally just patched out this retarded feature and kept opentmpfiles. As far as I can tell, nothing uses it anyway, at least nothing on my box.

Patch for v0.2:
possible language: perl, relevance: 13
--- a/tmpfiles
+++ b/tmpfiles
@@ -551,5 +551,5 @@
 		# whine about invalid entries
 		case $cmd in
-			f|F|w|d|D|v|p|L|c|C|b|x|X|r|R|z|Z|q|Q|h|H) ;;
+			f|F|w|d|D|v|p|L|c|C|b|x|X|r|R|q|Q|h|H) ;;
 			*) warninvalid ; continue ;;
Replies: >>2426 >>2428
It's a waste of time to even care about this crap.  Nobody needs systemd, freedesktop.org, gnome, redhat shit.  You pick a window manager like fvwm or whatever, you configure it and the standard X config files like .xinitrc, and you're done (assuming you even need X at all).
Replies: >>2427 >>2430
What do you think of the XDG Base Directory standard?
Replies: >>2440
enews >>2395
Replies: >>2430
The only reason I even bothered patching it is because the faggots immediately added it as a dependency to ten gorillion things.

This wasn't even in my enews. The last entry is 2021-06-30  migrating from glibc[crypt] to libxcrypt in ~arch and I updated today. The only reason I even noticed this shit was because an update tried to pull in systemd-tmpfiles, what the fuck. But thanks for the link, I wasn't following that thread.
Replies: >>2431
It isn't on enews yet because of dev drama: https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-dev&m=162585045017891&w=2
Replies: >>2432
God, Gentoo really has been going to shit in the last five years. What the fuck happened to this distro? Was there a big exodus of competent people?
mc.png (u)
[Hide] (8.1KB, 640x480)
ebin, just like everything else they did.  I like having the dotfiles and dotdirs directly in my $HOME, rather than scattered into subdirectories.  If I can do "ls -a" and see everything, that's perfect.  If I don't want to see the dotfiles, then I hide them by only typing "ls" or toggle the file listing mode with . key in Midnight Commander (maybe that's not the default binding, I configured my mc to behave more like vifm).
Replies: >>2463
.config is nice tho.

.local, .local/share, .var and so on aren't, because they mirror the retarded directory structure of an unix system.
Replies: >>2479 >>2480
Like I said, dotfiles go in $HOME, so .config is unnecessary.  I basically don't want any of their nu-Linux desktop environment related shit.
He is absolutely right, on average i have about 5 files in $HOME but some progs just decide they need a file in $HOME.
.cache is also nice btw
Replies: >>2485
You're absolutely wrong.  It's all complete garbage.
Replies: >>2486
no u
Replies: >>2508
benis.gif (u)
[Hide] (85.8KB, 1500x500)
Why is that the only good female programmers are men pretending to be women?
5429e7a905bfc5fdae98e60134936588d41215c287faf0fadddbb7727419ddbf.png (u)
[Hide] (445.6KB, 640x480)
I've been using Artix for a few months now, and it's awesome.  You get all the utility of Arch/AUR with OpenRC from Gentoo.  They have a bunch of ISOs with various DEs so it's super easy to get up and running: https://artixlinux.org/download.php
I'm using the Xfce build, and it's great with a good, minimal set of packages.
Has anyone tried to run Proxmox without Systemd? 
Maybe installing it through devuan would work?
Replies: >>2525
>what is searching "proxmox devuan"
First result.
Replies: >>2526
You mean the first and only result where the dev doesn't know and the guy who tried it never reported back?
Replies: >>2527
My first result is a forum thread.
>proxmox uses several systemd features
>Dec 6, 2019
Imagine how much deeper they shoved the sysD up in 2 years.
Replies: >>2528
But isn't Devuan made with Systemd alternatives built in with the intent of running programs that require systemd?
Replies: >>2529
No. Devuan have some systemd components replaced with alternatives. Programs that uses specific systemd parts may not have api-compatible replacements. For example, some program can use openssl and libressl, because only the api-compatible part is used. But if the program uses part of openssl with a different api than libressl or if that part doesn't exist in libressl, there is no replacement. Proxmox is probably using systemd parts with specific api. Unless the part it uses has common api for different implementation, patching would be needed to make it work.
Has anyone tried MX Linux? 
According to Distrowatch, the distro contains systemd but apparently the default init is SysV.
Assuming that you install the distro with SysV, would the installed distro still contain software that are dependent on systemd?

One thing I've come to realize is that there isn't a single normalfag distro without the poz.
And here's the thing, if you get normalfags off of Windows so they stop making computing so horrible, they'll make Linux as horrible as Windows in the process and we're already in the late stages of that.

The core issue of this is that no matter what normalfag friendly distro they use, they're all cancer. They're all evil predatory software with Apple or Microsoft-tier quality that will force everything to be as horrible as themselves. If you get rid of systemd, there's still Python, Pulseaudio, GNOME, GTK, QT, KDE, DBUS, glibc, consolekit, Wayland, VLC, Firefox, Chrome, those are all true visages of hell in software form and they purposefully drag everything they touch down to their level.

There needs to be a normalfag catcher distro that won't kill the few good distros left. Something like Alpine but entirely managed off the clickyclacky UI that normalniggers love so much.
Replies: >>2842
Blame_it_on_SystemD-Monitoring_the_Prometheus_Way.mp4 (u)
[Hide] (8.8MB, 640x368, 04:00)
What's wrong with python? People using it as anything more than a scripting language is retarded, but that's more of a user issue.
Replies: >>2855
Not him, but almost every Python update has caused major breakage on my system. It's not as bad as Perl yet, but having to fix setuptools by hand gets tiring really fucking quickly.
possible language: csharp, relevance: 36
  Title                     eudev retirement on 2022-01-01
  Author                    Anthony G. Basile <[email protected]>
  Posted                    2021-08-24
  Revision                  1

sys-fs/udev is becoming the standard provider of udev on non-systemd (e.g.
OpenRC) systems. Users of systemd will continue to use the udev services
provided by the sys-apps/systemd package itself.

The transition should be uneventful in most cases, but please
read this item in full to understand some possible corner cases.

eudev will be retired and removed from Gentoo on 2022-01-01. We will
start masking eudev on 2021-10-01 and give people 3 months to prepare
their transition. You should ensure that sys-fs/eudev is not in your
world file by running

  emerge --deselect sys-fs/eudev

in order for Portage to replace eudev with sys-fs/udev once the
package.mask is in place. We fully support udev on musl, whereas uclibc
will still have to rely on eudev before also being removed on 2022-01-01.


If you happen to have an INSTALL_MASK with a blanket "*systemd*" glob,
you will inevitably break your system. sys-fs/udev contains "systemd" in
some of its filenames, hence a blanket filter rule will likely lead to
a non-functional udev installation.


The integration of udev into the systemd git repo introduced numerous
problems for non-glibc systems, such as musl and uclibc.  Several
options were considered, and the one chosen was to fork and maintain udev
independent of the rest of systemd.  This was meant as a stop-gap solution
until such time as the problems with systemd on musl had been resolved.
This is now the case with patches provided by openembedded, and my original
reason for maintaining eudev is no longer relevant.

I am willing to transfer eudev to another umbrella organization or Linux
distribution that is willing to continue its maintenance, but maintaining
eudev cannot be done purely through proxy-maintaining and requires an
understanding of its internals.  This is a steep learning curve and must
be an earnest effort.  For this reason, the Base System project has decided
not to support eudev as an option going forward.
Haha sure is weird how these all happen within a few months of each other.
Replies: >>2877 >>2878 >>2883
I'm glad I fucked up when installing gentoo and decided not to use it as my main OS.
Fuck. Not this shit again. Looking at https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev
Replies: >>2881
The libinput and evdev drivers for Xorg have a hard dependency on it. I'm pretty sure libinput is required now too because they deprecated and killed the old mouse/keyboard drivers.
Replies: >>2881
Not looking good for me, I need lvm for dm-crypt.
Found this: https://github.com/illiliti/libudev-zero from https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/issues/2257. This may be it.
Get the fuck out of Gentoo

cbcf4d8f8ef5a6d142884d1034e9683bcd6dfbe88cbc93f10f3fdd38dbe8c29c.jpg (u)
[Hide] (507.9KB, 2000x2489)
>no SMGL
Install Source Mage Gnu/Linux  https://sourcemage.org
Replies: >>2899 >>2905 >>2915
Is Funtoo affected?
Replies: >>2895
Yes, unless they pick up maintenance of eudev.
Replies: >>2896
One can hope, though I fully expect the udev upstream to go ham on pointless compatibility breaking changes now that eudev is in a bad spot.
Replies: >>2900

Don't forget Carbs Linux:
Replies: >>2905 >>2915
Fuck this is still a thing? I remember this from at least 15 years ago. I was a teenager dabbling with Linux and tried sourcemage after getting frustrated with Gentoo. Never used it that much but how has it evolved?
Replies: >>2901
(((Red hat))) never gives a fuck about compatibility, the guy who maintained eudev had to manually follow development on upstream. Not an easy job for anyone.
>I am willing to transfer the eudev repo to another organization, but I
>will not maintain it anymore and Base System doesn't want to either.
>Let me warn people, to maintain it correctly you MUST become familiar
>with its internals and watch what systemd is doing upstream to keep up.
>This is not trivial. I learned a lot from eudev, and it did save musl
>on gentoo, but there was a period there when it was taking up almost all
>of my time. If you don't know what you're getting into, you don't want
>to take on its maintenance.

This mess is due to having to support shit software that depends on bigger and smellier shit. (((Upstream))) got lots of money and manpower to make everything complex and bloated at fuck. Shit is so bad that installing any gnome program, even their version of mspaint pulls in the whole gnome, systemd and other shit. Forks and development is not sustainable because of the complexity. kiss and other minimal choices solved the problem by simply not support those software at all. The best solution is killing Redhat and pottering in hell fire and go back to simplicity.
Replies: >>2903
>but how has it evolved?
sadly the project doesn't have enough manpower so it's pretty ded.
I didn't say they cared, but I expect there to be a mysteriously timed increase in changes that are really difficult to port so that eudev's revival never gets off the ground.
Replies: >>2904 >>2905
Right. At their current speed https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pulse, they don't need to do anything and the bits will rot.
Are any of those actually usable? I have heard of all of them. Don't know anything about Venom, but it's based on LFS, right? And I consider using that eventually. Sabotage seems promising, Carbs uses busybox, which is nice, and I considered KISS before but didn't try it because it only supports Wayland and last time I checked you couldn't even record your screen on that unless maybe using fucking Pipewire. And I don't like the complexity being moved to the actual window managers. Not having multilib would be kind of a pain, though, and a downside of using musl to eliminate the GNU/bloat. No more Wine Touhou on Linux unless I use another machine. 

I have really been struggling to get a clean system without udev, elogind and others. Even the BSDs are full of garbage dependencies like dbus (holy shit, dbus is fucking difficult to avoid) and other crap, so there aren't many easy ways to do that, so my new old main computer is not being used, because I don't know what to install on it, so I'm using a computer with an older install full of this garbage. This one can't be librebooted, so it's hopeless anyway. I would go straight to LFS, but I have no idea how long it will take to learn that, so I would rather use something else for now and do it in a VM in order to prepare myself for the avalanche of cancer to come.

It's a shame that it's dead. Never got to use it, but I heard that the package manager was good. I like the theme too. Perfect for a wizard.

Expect more totally accidental vulnerabilities in all of this garbage in the future. And expect Rust.
Replies: >>2906 >>2913 >>3023
>(holy shit, dbus is fucking difficult to avoid)
It really isn't. The big offender is GTK3 and you can trivially patch the Dbus support out of that one. Yes, it doesn't actually require Dbus, the faggot developers just removed the option because disabling the accessibility garbage is ableist and hurts The GNOME Brand™. Here's how to remove it, the patch is easily adapted to other versions.
possible language: c++, relevance: 26
diff -ruNd gtk+-3.24.1/configure.ac gtk+-3.24.1_patched/configure.ac
--- gtk+-3.24.1/configure.ac    2018-09-19 03:42:49.000000000 +0200
+++ gtk+-3.24.1_patched/configure.ac    2019-04-13 10:36:23.281715341 +0200
@@ -1400,11 +1400,7 @@
 # Check for Accessibility Toolkit flags

-if test x$enable_x11_backend = xyes; then
-   ATK_PACKAGES="atk atk-bridge-2.0"
-   ATK_PACKAGES="atk"


diff -ruNd gtk+-3.24.1/gtk/a11y/gtkaccessibility.c gtk+-3.24.1_patched/gtk/a11y/gtkaccessibility.c
--- gtk+-3.24.1/gtk/a11y/gtkaccessibility.c     2017-11-16 14:21:24.000000000 +0100
+++ gtk+-3.24.1_patched/gtk/a11y/gtkaccessibility.c     2019-04-13 10:38:12.529715578 +0200
@@ -37,10 +37,6 @@
 #include <gtk/gtktogglebutton.h>
 #include <gtk/gtkaccessible.h>

-#include <atk-bridge.h>
 static gboolean gail_focus_watcher      (GSignalInvocationHint *ihint,
                                          guint                  n_param_values,
                                          const GValue          *param_values,
@@ -988,9 +984,5 @@
   _gtk_accessibility_override_atk_util ();
   do_window_event_initialization ();

-  atk_bridge_adaptor_init (NULL, NULL);
   atk_misc_instance = g_object_new (GTK_TYPE_MISC_IMPL, NULL);
 }I've been DBus-free for years now. One downside is that you have to compile FF from source though, which has painful compilation times that became even more painful when they added Rust to the mix.
Replies: >>2909
Having to do that at all is fucking bullshit, and it definitely won't be possible when they shove GTK4 down our throats. Firefox is trash and I don't want to use it anyway, so that's not a problem, but other browsers use GTK too (except qutebrowser). I wish I could just not use GTK and Qt. Almost possible, but not quite.
Replies: >>2910 >>2912
Palemoon can be compiled with gtk2, where dbus is not required.
Replies: >>2914
>Having to do that at all is fucking bullshit
You either take control or you remain the play ball of the niggers currently in charge.
Replies: >>2914
>Are any of those actually usable?
Yes, venom and sabotage are the best options imho.

A big plus that they have over kiss is the ability to have dependency checking+resolution. They both serve very different purposes. Sabotage is musl only with a unique filesystem layout, where all packages are installed to /opt. It is actually very old, being the first musl distro. Plus the devs are based, look on the leader's blog https://sabotage-linux.github.io/blog/about/ . Venom is very young, but it has been advancing fast. It has a musl version, but focus is on the glibc build. The system shell is dash for speed, and it took inspiration from lfs, crux and kiss. Porting software to it is very easy and the scratchpkg (the pkg manager) is handy too.

> And I don't like the complexity being moved to the actual window managers.
Wayland is utter crap, you can get xorg for kiss here
Replies: >>2914 >>3023
True, but polishing a turd is still not something that should be necessary. I would rather not use crap made by the fucking GNOME project at all, instead of just trying to make their garbage less bad until they eventually make that impossible too.

Really not a fan of Palemoon. It's still basically Firefox (maybe an older version), and Firefox is a terrible browser, and it's basically Google cancer too. I was thinking about Qutebrowser (sure, Python, but it works well enough and I already need it for youtube-dl), but then I notice that it downloaded dbus as a dependency. Piece of shit. I guess I either have to clean up GTK3 or I have to go with Palemoon.

I know about the filesystem thing. It's like Gobo, right? Pretty neat idea that can solve the multiple versions issue without adding a lot of complexity to the package manager for no reason (like Nix and Guix did). Anyway, I will give both Sabotage and Venom a shot. Switching to musl is something that I kinda wanted to do, so maybe I should sacrifice multilib and use a different machine for that. BusyBox would be very nice to have. I don't need GNU's bloat, and there is no need to install another shell when the BusyBox version of ash is already there.
Replies: >>2918
Also, CRUX linux https://crux.nu
or LFS https://www.linuxfromscratch.org (with pkgsrc and/or Guix package manager)
>It's like Gobo, right?
Gobo was one of the inspirations, but I've never used it to know how close they are.

Their sites don't mention it but there are liberachat channels for the distros, see #sabotage and #venomlinux .
>Don't know anything about Venom
Crux, which Venom is based on, is basically LFS with a rudimentary SysV type init and a source package manager. No USE flags or anything, just Pkgfiles.
It's very stable, extremely fun and easy to use, very fast and customizable, and above all it makes you a better programmer/user.
Try it on a vm https://crux.nu/

t. have been using Crux as daily driver for a year and wouldn't trade it for anything.

Why do you think Venom is better than Crux? From what I understand the main difference is that it has a different package manager. But crux is older and arguably more stable just because of that.
Replies: >>3037
I am just not installing it (systemd)
I know... Ugh, I know...
I am sorry!
It is just I am not installing it is all
They said it is a drop in replacement, it's not.
>Hello, an update this morning asks me to disable udev for lvm2 & cryptsetup since I have static enabled for both, lvm2 (static static-libs) cryptsetup (static); why this change ? How to solve that ?
Systemd bug: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/20600
Of course that soy piece of shit stamps WONTFIX.
Replies: >>3038 >>3039
I dont, it's not on the list because i forgot to include it :p
what_in_tarnations.png (u)
[Hide] (448.5KB, 759x543)
>we are simply not going to rename all our internal symbols
<literally has to rename version to systemd_version (or something like that)
What is wrong with these people?
Lol, of course it's Poettering himself WONTFIXing it. The Freedesktop shitters have been on the warpath with static linking for a while now so it's unfortunately no surprise they'll happily break it. Seriously, read some of the dynamic linking propaganda. It's exactly the same kind of dishonest shit you see with systemd, Wayland, dbus, etc.
If you forgot why you are trying to remove SystemD.
Here is a refresher:
[ebuild  N     ] sys-fs/udev-249-r3::gentoo
[uninstall     ] sys-fs/eudev-3.2.10-r1::gentoo
I have been putting it off for a few weeks. It finally came. What do bros? Should I make the switch to kiss or get mdev working?
Replies: >>3807 >>4076
Definitely try setting up mdev. Actually, mdevd is much better and it uses the same config syntax as mdev. For configuration, there's https://github.com/slashbeast/mdev-like-a-boss and https://github.com/alpinelinux/aports/blob/master/main/busybox-initscripts/mdev.conf but I'd recommend going through, seeing which user/groups you actually need, and building up a minimal config based on that. I didn't bother being comprehensive, since most groups are superfluous, and some pose security risks if you actually use them (like putting you're regular user in the disk group). Here's my mdev.conf:
possible language: typescript, relevance: 7
$MODALIAS=.* root:root 660 @modprobe -b "$MODALIAS"

null    root:root 666
zero    root:root 666
full    root:root 666
random  root:root 666
urandom root:root 666
hwrng   root:root 600

console root:root 600
ptmx    root:root 666
tty     root:root 666

kvm         root:kvm 660
vhost-net   root:kvm 660
vhost-vsock root:kvm 660

fuse root:root 666

sd.* root:root 660 */etc/mdev.d/block

SUBSYSTEM=sound;.*    root:audio 660
SUBSYSTEM=graphics;.* root:video 660
SUBSYSTEM=drm;.*      root:video 660
SUBSYSTEM=kfd;.*      root:video 660
SUBSYSTEM=input;.*    root:input 660

SUBSYSTEM=net;INTERFACE=eth0;.* root:root 660 @ethtool -s eth0 wol g

To determine the uevents that my machine generates I created a script:
possible language: bash, relevance: 15
exec >>/tmp/mdev.log
echo '<<<'
echo '>>>'
and ran it like so in mdev.conf: .* root:root 660 */path/to/script
Replies: >>3808
Appreciate it, will try to rig it up this weekend or the next.
Replies: >>3816
Did anyone tried stali 
It is suckless's distro with musl, no systemd and a /sucks dir for everything that sucks. Did anyone tried it?
Replies: >>3821 >>4055
First time hearing about it. May try that if mdev doesn't work out.
>tfw distros without systemd becoming the unvaxed
Replies: >>4055
ripstali.png (u)
[Hide] (33KB, 403x547)
RIP sta.li. I don't think it was very actively maintained anymore anyway IIRC. I can highly recommend KISS Linux, as has been recommended a few times in here already. Everything is just POSIX shell scripts. It is the greatest shit ever. Been running GKISS for a while now, which is a fork that uses glibc instead of musl. I know glibc is trash, but I don't want to deal with patching stuff that isn't in the official repos because I'm a pleb. I've been kindof itching to switch anyway though
I have been running openbsd for about a week and the main difference is even with my beefy computer bloatware like qutebrowser(has pulseaudio as dependency, btw) take 4+ seconds to load, twice the time it took in linux. Default tablet driver is make do mouse drivers soo it doesn't detect touch sensitivity by default, usbtablet driver seems good but i weren't able to make it work. Also no openbsd software respects the xdg directory standarts soo your ./ will be filled with dotfiles. For comparison I had only .config .cache .local and .pki(qutebrowsers garbage) dotfiles in linux but i have 12 dotfiles right now and some .core(obsd creates them when programs die unexpectedly, which is always) files that refuse to go away. The stability is over the top thought, i had a defect GPU that sometimes randomly locked the system and i had to reboot but in openbsd it just locks xorg and i can kill/restart xorg from another tty.
Replies: >>4107
Eudev is maintained again, you don't have to switch.
That's normal. XDG is some Linux bullshit. But even in modern OpenBSD some things like Firefox or Chromium probably use it anyway, unless they patched it out.
Replies: >>4113
But it tickles my autism, this singlehandedly might be the reason to change OS for me. The worst part is if i change to linux root file structure is fucked soo linux won't be enough after i saw how well openbsd handles file structure by default.
Replies: >>4118
Fifty_Shades_of_SystemD.jpg (u)
[Hide] (46.7KB, 537x464)
lad.png (u)
[Hide] (1.3KB, 640x480)
Fun fact to make autists squirm uncomfortably: CP/M has no directories, and so all files are visible at all times.  There is a USER command though, that gives you like 16 different "views" of a floppy or hard disk, but it's basically just a hack.
Replies: >>4123
There were probably 10 files total in the system anyways
Replies: >>4125
Sanco_8001.jpg (u)
[Hide] (1.1MB, 2560x1920)
A bit more than that (see pic), and especially once you start actually using the system and creating data files, program files, and so on.
Then there's all the 3rd party tools you could get from mail order user groups (or maybe from a BBS, if you were so lucky to own a modem back then).
>>1 (OP) 
Don't use a systemd distro in the first place. If your package manager keeps wanting to reinstall systemd dependencies for your fucking everything, then running your distro without systemd means you basically can't use your package manager (or will keep butting heads with it) which pretty much kills the appeal of your distro and means you are stuck manually compiling shit, at which point you would be better off running Gentoo which is actually good at manually compiling your software and having a systemd-free experience.

If you want to be systemd-free, find a distro that's closest to your needs (or otherwise has a strong enough community supporting it that you can tweak it towards your needs without too much difficulty) and use that in the first place. Life is simply better that way, and if you have a problem doing something in a systemd-free way, you can get help that actually fits your circumstances rather than sifting through an ocean of systemd shit.

Make the switch instead of sticking with a distro that treats non-systemd users like second-class citizens. You'll be happier for it.

There has been interest by systemd fanatics in bringing it to BSD, but it hasn't taken because it's too much work and because the BSD communities are more technically competent than most Linux distros and generally bigger on the "unix philosophy" (software tools should be small and specific to the task they fulfill, as well as replaceable) so they weren't interested in being handcuffed to doing things the systemd way and dealing with all the insane bugs and issues systemd spits out.
Replies: >>4290 >>4291
>i don't know anything about the subject and i didn't read the thread. Here is a textwall of what you should do.
s.png (u)
[Hide] (13.9KB, 640x480)
There's no perfect solution for everyone.  A lot of people have some constraint or another to work around.  In my case, I only use old processors that don't do speculative execution and don't have x86 bugs and insanity.  Well gentoo isn't going to work out very well on such small/old hardware, and the other options I tried (devuan, slackware) just didn't work to the level I needed.  Those either didn't have some drivers I needed (would have required me to build an old 3.4 kernel) or they came with DRM video, which I don't want, because I want to keep using the old simple framebuffer that's been around since Linux 2.x which does exactly everything I need.
Maybe alpine would work, but it's not really worth the trouble to fiddle with it now that Ubuntu 16.04 LTS is on here and working fine for years without systemd.  The most I did was build a newer version of BusyBox, which fixed the ^Z bug I was talking about earlier >>2077
Replies: >>4292 >>4293
What about distcc/crossdev? Couldn't you use another more powerful system to cross-compile Gentoo for that old hardware?
Replies: >>4294
>gentoo isn't going to work very well on such small/old hardware
>old processors that don't do speculative execution and don't have x86 bugs and insanity
Me too with gentoo. 1GB ARM. GCC takes 2 days, but you can always compile when you don't use it.
Replies: >>4294
I just don't have anything faster than old ARM boards.  They pretty much do everything I need.

I don't think it would be necessary to build gcc very often, but stuff like Firefox or Chromium always have security updates, and those seem like they'd take forever, especially with all their crazy dependencies.
Replies: >>4295 >>4296 >>4300
I hope you're talking about forks only.
Replies: >>4297
>don't have anything faster than old ARM boards
local second hand market, dell optiplex or some other used desktop. Air gap it and transfer files through usb drives. Or get more old ARM boards.
>getting rusted
>on my ARM machine
Install Palemoon
Replies: >>4297
IMG_8206-txt.jpg (u)
[Hide] (961.6KB, 2048x2048)
I don't use these browsers enough to really care about which one, it's more of a case of being forced to use a modern browser to login to some accounts once or twice a month.  Firefox seems rather slow lately though, and often pops up the "some scripts are taking too long to complete" error, whereas Chromium normally just works.  But I keep it around just in case.
In fact, I'd get rid of Xorg altogether if I didn't need to use a modern browser ever.  That would be cool because it would open up other options than Linux or BSD, and maybe I could even use even older hardware from the 80's and 90's.
Replies: >>4298
Firefox went pozzed and also got a lot of "donations" from google. 
Not only has their code become increasingly shitty these past few years, they also stopped caring about privacy completely, going as far as to forcefully link users to google because "we think analytics is important". 
Chromium is objectively better, and forks might be destined to die if they're too reliant on the upstream. 
Decent browser fucking when?
Replies: >>4299
>going as far as to forcefully link users to google because
Actually I'm wrong, they eventually added an opt-out option. It only took two years after the initial complaint.
>I just don't have anything faster than old ARM boards.  They pretty much do everything I need.
Well, you could get some used hardware that is much more powerful, that you can outsource all the compiling to. Makes sense to think that it's not worth the effort, though. Could also try a BSD.
[New Reply]
149 replies | 24 files
Show Post Actions



- news - rules - faq -
jschan 0.1.7