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Putin's given us the boot! Read about it here: https://zzzchan.xyz/news.html#66208b6a8fca3aefee4bf211


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Discussion: Spotting Closet Socialists

We identify various defining characteristics in the socialist. He deeply suppresses his innate tribalism and believes all peoples are equal and entitled in his country. He perceives himself as a lowly member of the working class. He is being held down by the man: a fabulously rich business exec who chainsmokes cigars. Charity is a moral necessity. The poor are due their hand-outs as compensation from the "exploitative" bourgeoisie. He throws "fascist" around as an epithet for all those who dare to speak out in the sake of preserving their own culture.

He is an egalitarian, a victim, a comrade, he is "proletariat" (Starbucks™), "anti-fascist," a Californian: he is the closet socialist.

How can we spot these people in our day-to-day lives so that we can avoid them?
Replies: >>24 >>35 >>54
>>12 (OP) 
>How can we spot these people in our day-to-day lives so that we can avoid them?
Imagine having this possibility. Some of us are behind enemy lines and have no choice but to hide our disgust until we can move.
>>12 (OP) 
>believes all peoples are equal and entitled in his country.
That's left wing socialism. You can also have the state claim a monopoly on the means of production to pursue anti-egalitarian goals like racial supremacy.
Replies: >>39
>>35
>when goberment do something, it's socialism
I always thought of socialism as an inherently egalitarian ideology, and not just being about state-owned industry or abolishing markets. What's important to understand about socialism is that the atrocities are committed in the name of equality and "for the working class".
Replies: >>53
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>>39
>when goberment do something, it's socialism
Who are you quoting? The post literally says socialism is state monopoly on the means of production.

>What's important to understand about socialism is that the atrocities are committed in the name of equality and "for the working class".
National Socialists do the same shit but in the name of the aryan race.

>I always thought of socialism as an inherently egalitarian ideology
The lies they tell to justify their theft is just tactics. When you get down to it, commies want to steal from the "bourgeoisie" for the exact same reason nazis want to steal from the "jews" - because they are parasitic losers who can't create their own wealth.
Replies: >>55 >>58
>>12 (OP) 
Another thing I noticed is the
>oh the ignorant masses
For some reason, most commies and statists in general like to think that the population cannot choices for their own good, but can for other's good. (Don't look for consistency, democracy is a logical clusterfuck)

I noticed this while reading through Bastiat's The Law, where he perfectly describes the phenomena of individuals placing themselves outside of society and then proceeding to make suggestions on molding said society.
>there should be more wallkable spaces
>this should be affortable
>this should not exist
>we should get this for free
>this is inhuman and shouldn't happen
>you should pay $15 or go out of business
and the list keeps going... Notice how it's always a should, they don't "wish" for society for being different, they want and need it to be in a certain way, even if it contradicts logic. Thinking about it now, maybe this is why leftists in general tend to preach that social constructs are meaningless and can be made up. Even thought it's in their very name, "social" constructs, they'll always exist in a "social" context, with two people agreeing on something. But due to the rhetoric, this causes a literal mindfreeze in most of them.

I personally think this comes from their refusal to accept incentives and praxeology, thus under non-Austrian views, people's decisions are either random, ignorant, or ideological.

Dunno this is only by two cents, what are your thoughts. I think there must be some deeper level logical contradiction that makes socialists, statists, commies, fascists, woke leftists, etc such an ideological mess but I cannot be bothered to untangle it right now, plus I'm pretty sure it's in the reading list somewhere.
Replies: >>55 >>65
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>>53
>Who are you quoting? The post literally says socialism is state monopoly on the means of production.
That's one definition of socialism, but I've noticed socialists are often anarchists. What I've noticed about socialists is they view the world through a deeply leftist lens of class. They see the working class as being oppressed by the rich. To me that's one of the critical points that defines socialism and not just some technical detail about who specifically mediates the management of industry for the working class.
>>54
>Don't look for consistency, democracy is a logical clusterfuck
What do you mean by that? Are you asserting that statists' faith in democracy is illogical? Or that breaking down democracy in meaningful economic terms is a headache?
>I think there must be some deeper level logical contradiction that makes socialists, statists, commies, fascists, woke leftists, etc 
This really made me think of something else Bastiat said in the law (pic related). I see this same thing in Keynesian-types as well: that, the government must intervene in recessions to revitalize the economy, like bail-outs or jobs digging dirt holes.
They imagine the economy as though it is made of cogs and gears, that it need only be greased in order to "function" again. That, if the government didn't, nobody would make risky investments. That the pool of labor available during times of great recession is not an incentive for entrepreneurs. That the State's actors will somehow be more rational in the economic calculation of investments.
Replies: >>57 >>65
>>55
>To me that's one of the critical points that defines socialism and not just some technical detail about who specifically mediates the management of industry for the working class.
My point being, that if the unions owned everything, socialism would still be shit.
>>53
Settle down, rabbi
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Free as in communism.
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>>54
>individuals placing themselves outside of society and then proceeding to make suggestions on molding said society
There is also the assumption that someone else will pay for it. Socialists want more housing and more immigrants and more money for ukraine and free healthcare and reparations for blacks and so on and so on. But it never occurs to them that someone has to pay for this shit. They either assume things are magically free when the government does it or at the very least some sucker in a higher tax band will be forced to pay for it.

picrel, watch how bewildered these "protestors" are when they're asked to take in a immigrant themselves. It literally never occurred to them that there is a real world cost to what they are asking for.

I think this delusional detachment from consequences is an essential part of socialism. If you've ever tried to talk to someone about free healthcare their thought process is "well it's free so why would you oppose it? You're just being an asshole".

>>55
>not just some technical detail about who specifically mediates the management of industry for the working class
Your Bastiat quote is saying exactly what the person you're responding to is saying though. Socialists don't differentiate between the state and society, they think they are the state so they think the state controlling everything is the same as the people controlling everything. And that goes for National Socialists as well as Marxist socialists.
Replies: >>74
>>65
>There is also the assumption that someone else will pay for it.
Nick Land put this excellently.
>Social solidarity, in precise contrast, is the parasite’s friend. By cropping out all high-frequency feedback mechanisms (such as market signals), and replacing them with sluggish, infra-red loops that pass through a centralized forum of ‘general will’, a radically democratized society insulates parasitism from what it does, transforming local, painfully dysfunctional, intolerable, and thus urgently corrected behavior patterns into global, numbed, and chronic socio-political pathologies.
It may be hard to read, but in essence governments enable the removal of feedback from one's action. One's stupid decisions or political ideology is no longer an isolated issue, but will expand across society like an infectious pathogen. It is only a consequence of this logic that people cease to view their actions and their consequences as one.

tl;dr democracy and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
Replies: >>75 >>137
>>74
The worst part is the people who pay all the taxes and make this all possible are the biggest supporters.

I've been working on an NPC exploit for Blue city libtards. Ask them how much tax they pay. Then ask them to guess how much tax the average toothless deplorable redneck school shooting trump voter pays. Then try to get them to connect those dots between paying tons of tax and then being permanently outvoted by people they hate more than anything.

>inb4 the average democrat will just want to put trump voters into gas chambers and keep democracy as it is
I'm kind of expecting that response but we'll see.
Socialism Isn't about Creating Economies. It Is about Amassing Political Power

...

The Soviet economy was wasteful and chaotic. Besançon believed that economic planning induced irrationality in the system. Terrified managers couldn’t report failing the plan, and consequently any subsequent economic planning would be even more divorced from reality than previous planning had been.

Both Besançon and Mises knew that socialism could not discover market prices. Both knew that this would lead to widespread corruption. However, Besançon realized that the state not only tolerated but also used the black market for price discovery in economic sectors critical to the regime, like defense and certain prestigious cultural and sport endeavors (Bolshoi Theatre, gymnastics, eventually hockey, etc.).

However, there is a critical difference between Mises and Besançon. While Mises believed that the goal of the Soviet economy was to produce usable goods and services, Besançon believed otherwise. The Soviet economy, he posited, was never about producing goods and services for consumers, but rather had other goals.

The Soviet economy existed to keep the Communist Party in power, and that was the sole criteria party leaders used to evaluate its performance. The “production” of political power was supreme, and anything else was secondary, subordinated to the main goal for the Soviet economy.

Soviet political leaders did not want an economy that produced goods abundantly because abundance separates the citizen from the state. The state would lose its power over its subjects if they became wealthier. Homo sovieticus—the Soviet man—had to be dependent on the state, barely living from one day to the next on state-issued ration cards.

If a Soviet manager managed by some miracle to produce well-being, despite absurd planning orders and a lack of market prices, he might well have been punished for failing to produce what he really needed to produce: state power over simple people. Abundance and well-being always were and still are the true enemies of socialism; people cannot be able to ignore or to forget the power of the state.

...

https://mises.org/wire/socialism-isnt-about-creating-economies-it-about-amassing-political-power
Replies: >>98 >>137
>>97
>Abundance and well-being always were and still are the true enemies of socialism
>>74
>democracy and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
After the Americas had been discovered, Isabella and Ferdinand organized trade between their new colonies and Spain via a guild of merchants in Seville. These merchants controlled all trade and made sure that the monarchy got its share of the wealth of the Americas. There was "no free trade" with any of the colonies, and each year a large flotilla of ships would return from the Americas bringing precious metals and valuable goods to Seville. The narrow, monopolized base of this trade meant that no broad class of merchants could emerge via trading opportunities with the colonies. Even trade within the Americas was heavily regulated. For example, a merchant in a colony such as New Spain, roughly modern Mexico, could not trade directly with anyone in New Granada, modern Colombia. These restrictions on trade within the Spanish Empire reduced its economic prosperity and also, indirectly, the potential benefits that Spain could have gained by trading with another, more prosperous empire. Nevertheless, they were attractive because they guaranteed that the silver and gold would keep flowing to Spain.

...

As Habsburg absolutism strengthened in the eighteenth century, the power of all non-monarchical institutions weakened further. When a deputation of citizens from the Austrian province of the Tyrol petitioned Francis for a constitution, he responded, “So, you want a constitution! . . . Now look, I don’t care for it, I will give you a constitution but you must know that the soldiers obey me, and I will not ask you twice if I need money . . . In any case I advise you to be careful what you are going to say.” Given this response, the Tyrolese leaders replied, “If thou thinkest thus, it is better to have no constitution,” to which Francis answered, “That is also my opinion.”

...

At the center of Habsburg economic institutions stood the feudal order and serfdom. As one moved east within the empire, feudalism became more intense, a reflection of the more general gradient in economic institutions we saw in chapter 4, as one moved from Western to Eastern Europe. Labor mobility was highly circumscribed, and emigration was illegal. 

>>97
>Abundance and well-being always were and still are the true enemies of socialism
When the English philanthropist Robert Owen tried to convince the Austrian government to adopt some social reforms in order to ameliorate the conditions of poor people, one of Metternich’s assistants, Friedrich von Gentz, replied, “We do not desire at all that the great masses shall become well off and independent . . . How could we otherwise rule over them?”

In addition to serfdom, which completely blocked the emergence of a labor market and removed the economic incentives or initiative from the mass of the rural population, Habsburg absolutism thrived on monopolies and other restrictions on trade. The urban economy was dominated by guilds, which restricted entry into professions. Until 1775 there were internal tariffs within Austria itself and in Hungary until 1784. There were very high tariffs on imported goods, with many explicit prohibitions on the import and export of goods.

The suppression of markets and the creation of extractive economic institutions are of course quite characteristic of absolutism, but Francis went further. It was not simply that extractive economic institutions removed the incentive for individuals to innovate or adopt new technology. We saw in chapter 2 how in the Kingdom of Kongo attempts to promote the use of plows were unsuccessful because people lacked any incentive, given the extractive nature of the economic institutions. The king of Kongo realized that if he could induce people to use plows, agricultural productivity would be higher, generating more wealth, which he could benefit from. This is a potential incentive for all governments, even absolutist ones. The problem in Kongo was that people understood that whatever they produced could be confiscated by an absolutist monarch, and therefore they had no incentive to invest or use better technology. In the Habsburg lands, Francis did not encourage his citizens to adopt better technology; on the contrary, he actually opposed it, and blocked the dissemination of technologies that people would have been otherwise willing to adopt with the existing economic institutions.

Opposition to innovation was manifested in two ways. First, Francis I was opposed to the development of industry. Industry led to factories, and factories would concentrate poor workers in cities, particularly in the capital city of Vienna. Those workers might then become supporters for opponents of absolutism. His policies were aimed at locking into place the traditional elites and the political and economic status quo. He wanted to keep society primarily agrarian. The best way to do this, Francis believed, was to stop the factories being built in the first place. This he did directly—for instance, in 1802, banning the creation of new factories in Vienna. Instead of encouraging the importation and adoption of new machinery, the basis of industrialization, he banned it until 1811.

Second, he opposed the construction of railways, one of the key new technologies that came with the Industrial Revolution. When a plan to build a northern railway was put before Francis I, he replied, “No, no, I will have nothing to do with it, lest the revolution might come into the country.”
Since the government would not grant a concession to build a steam railway, the first railway built in the empire had to use horse-drawn carriages. The line, which ran between the city of Linz, on the Danube, to the Bohemian city of Budweis, on the Moldau River, was built with gradients and corners, which meant that it was impossible subsequently to convert it to steam engines. So it continued with horse power until the 1860s. The economic potential for railway development in the empire had been sensed early by the banker Salomon Rothschild, the representative in Vienna of the great banking family. Salomon’s brother Nathan, who was based in England, was very impressed by George Stephenson’s engine “The Rocket” and the potential for steam locomotion. He contacted his brother to encourage him to look for opportunities to develop railways in Austria, since he believed that the family could make large profits by financing railway development. Nathan agreed, but the scheme went nowhere because Emperor Francis again simply said no.


Why Nations Fail
THE ORIGINS OF POWER, PROSPERITY, AND POVERTY
Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson
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>>146
You don't belong here
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