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Discussion of Christianity, the Church, and theology


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John 3:16 KJV: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


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Here we discuss the writings and ideas of:

C.S Lewis
J. R. R. Tolkien
G. K Chesterton
Charles Williams
And all the host of them!

Have you been reading anything by them lately? Speak about it

"The Blessed Evangelist John lived at Ephesus down to an extreme old age, and, at length, when he was with difficulty carried to the Church, and was not able to exhort the congregation at length, he was used simply to say at each meeting, My little children, love one another. At last the disciples and brethren were weary with hearing these words continually, and asked him, Master, wherefore ever sayest thou this only? Whereto he replied to them, worthy of John: It is the commandment of the Lord, and if this only be done, it is enough."
Just how Gnostic was Tolkien?

Obviously, he was an observant Catholic, not a full-blown heretic. But, given just how painstakingly "The Silmarillion" was crafted to harmonize with the Bible, the places where it strikes own chord are all more clear. Perhaps the most striking difference is treatment of Original Sin. In Tolkien's version of Genesis, the Fall occurs prior to creation, and fault of that event lies 100% with Satan. Feanor's rebellion would probably be the closest thing to Adam's fall, and Feanor was already born in a fallen world infested with death, betrayal and suffering. That's not an excise to give in to pride and go on a mass murder spree, of course, but even the first murder in Valinor (that reader knows of) is committed personally by Satan and his spider demon, not by a man or an elf.


Aside from fiction, there are JRRT's letters. Forgive me, for I do not know them like the back of my hand, but he does explain the doctrine of Sub-creation in those, which seems almost entirely Platonic or Gnostic.
Replies: >>26771 >>26778
Wish my parents had shown me their stuff growing up. I found C.S. Lewis' works quite helpful. 

I think a lot of Christians, myself included, have been unaware of the wealth of insightful writings by forebearers. Lewis himself learnt from a lot of people before him, including Chesterton, and I think he did a pretty good job of conveying it all along with his own insights. 

>>26762
>the doctrine of Sub-creation which seems almost entirely Platonic or Gnostic
Huh, I never viewed it that way. Can you explain?
Creation as a series of emanation from Highest Good (It's a bit complicated, since Plato had a vision of a triune God as well - but didn't think of Him as a Person, and assigned attributes of Goodness, Righteousness [at times translated Justice], and Beauty as facets of the trinity, but they're, of course, interdependent and together form the Highest Good), with each further emanation becoming more and more degenerate due to growing distance from the actual God, is a view of Platonic metaphysics. Gnostics essentially followed that, but in more Christian terms, and, of course, viewed God (and lesser sub-creators, such as Sophia and Demiurge) as Person(s).

Tolkien, of course, doesn't follow it straight away and instead writes of the reverse, that by sub-creating we can instead approach closer to God. Still, given just how painstakingly he followed Catholic doctrine in his, to put in his own terms, sub-creation, I must imagine he had really good reasons for 'suddenly' embracing pre-Christian enlightened philosophy instead. 

Sources: The Republic; The Symposium; my ass

P.S Mods, this captcha is of the Devil. You've essentially banned TOR. And there's no reason for your ISP and Feds to know you like to visit zzzchan. This place is a gigantic red flag for them, even if /christian/ isn't shooting up mosques or planning to assassinate state dignitaries.
Replies: >>26774
>>26773
Some would argue the Gnostics perverted Plato's ideas.
>>26762
I think you're reading too much into it, it is after all a fantasy, I don't know about Tolkien but I have heard that C.S Lewis when asked about it said "Well of course Aslan represents Christ, but I took some liberties as to how redemption works in the Narnia world, I don't believe that's how Christ reedemed us". I reckon Tolkien just held to what is contained in something like the Penny Catechism
Replies: >>26892
>>26778
Frankly speaking, I was just hoping to kickstart a discussion by postulating that an icon of Catholic thought was secretly a gigaheretic. "Was Tolkien a Gnostic?" is a question beaten to death among the fans, and so far conclusion is that no, there is no evidence that Professor himself subscribed to such beliefs (aside from outlined similarity between his own idea of sub-creation and some old philosophy), but yes, there are elements of gnostic myth in his writing, just like there is myth of Beowulf in story of Turin, for example. 

The board is, however, dead. Stick a fork in it, it's well done.
Replies: >>26893
>>26892
I have never heard it ever enterained anywhere that he held any inclination of gnostic thought. The problem with being creative is that people will see whatever they want within your work despite what you intend.
>I have never heard it ever enterained anywhere

A quick search could easily show you it is a pretty old topic in multiple languages.
Replies: >>26900
>>26898
 A quick Google search could reveal many things and yet not make it a mainstream suggestion.
Replies: >>26915
>>26900
>I need things to be in the mainstream in order to consider them
May I suggest returning to cuckchan or plebbit?
Replies: >>26917
>>26915
Do you need an echo chamber?
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