/christian/ - christian

most likely not demons, sometimes God helps you even if you don't ask for his help
mary veneration/worship is woefully misguided and another one of the catholic church's many false interpretations of scripture that exists to try to legitimize Rome's authority

>>26660
In this case they did ask for help to relics or saints and received help, so how it is?

I know for sure that Guadalupe at least was a demon, because it commanded the man it appeared to to "build a temple to me"

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>>26664
I don't really see what the issue is, seeing as the shrine is just a Catholic church where the Mass is celebrated as in any other. If Catholic churches dedicated to Our Lady are demonic, the supposedly demonic request at Guadalupe is pretty banal and doesn't seem to be worthy of particular notice or criticism.

>>26666
>Satanic quads as well, mhmm
That's how it starts:
"It's just a statue" to "let's infanticide for Moloch". Maybe ancient israelites imagined that Moloch wasn't demonic and was somehow a way for honoring God, they may had sinful consideration and realized it too late, but we're still in time to reconsider the worship of demon apparitions.

>wasn't demonic and was somehow a way for honoring God
Wouldn't be the first time that's happened:
>"4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
>5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord." Exodus 32:4-5 KJV

It's possible the people's intention behind the golden calf fashioned by Aaron was worship for the LORD. God, however, did not see it that way:
>"8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." Exodus 32:8 KJV

>>26669
If the Catholic Church was going to do "infanticide for Moloch," then why has it taken 2,000 years to get to that point? Why is the Catholic Church still steadfast in its opposition to abortion and infanticide after all these years of people telling them "Your beliefs are outdated and your religion will be a relic for the history books"?

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The perseverance of Catholics in these matters is comforting, even if contaminated by pride against a half-forgotten pagan Rome. It still doesn't change the implications of the OPs discussion of idolatry. It is part of the slippery slope of demonic depravity, always. Mariolatry today, roasted kids tomorrow.

>>26782
If there's a slippery slope from calling Mary blessed, as the Bible says we should, to infanticide, I still don't know how the Catholic Church has avoided sliding all the way for two millennia.

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I say Mary is blessed, and indescribably based. This is biblical, and not idolatrous. Mary is a very central piece of our Lord's vision, and therefore a frequent and treasured element in my reflections. I can appreciate Marian art broadly. I can share my appreciation of Mary and her role with anyone. I give witness in fathering a girl to see Mary as a central model for all areas of a life in discipleship, and point to how her mother has always strived to do the same.

And it all stops there.

I don't walk after a procession, religious or otherwise, especially if led by an image made by human hands. I will certainly not step out of my way to look for such images with my God-made feet and eyes, not even out of scientific curiosity. I will not use them as props for prayer (icons), and certainly not as the direction of prayer. I will not touch such images, especially with a warm heart, or presume to please God in so doing. Not with my God-made hands and fingers, and neither with - God forbid! - my lips. Not implying anything, chill. And, of course, saying Mary is blessed is 100% biblical. Mariolatry is not.

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>>26786
A lot of cherry picking, God bless you.

Mariolatry is not biblical. Seethe and growl however you please.

>>26659 (OP) 
These miracles lead people to Christ and the church, which would be the opposite of what Satan would want.

>>26793
Do they? At what cost? Men and women of remarkable perseverance in discipleship are to be celebrated, especially the example of those who willingly suffered and died for Christ. This is proper veneration, without graven images. I have even known Catholics and Orthodox brothers who had a sober understanding of sainthood and veneration, but I fear they are an infinitesimal minority: most will simply run to the idol-mongers hoping to find magical recipes and amulets until Jesus has so small a place in their hearts that it doesn't make much difference. The OP brought the issue of miracles attributed to the saints or, more precisely, to the favour they were able to obtain from the Lord. Do most believers care about this precision, though? How many are not left with the impression that the saints, and not Christ, are performing those miracles?

>>26794
Funny you should mention that. Today I shared the gospel with a good aquaintance. I asked him if he goes to church (as I had a feeling from prior chats that if I asked him if he was Christian, he would say yes). It turns out he's Roman Catholic. I asked him if they ever told him how to be saved and go to Heaven. He responded uncertainly, saying: "yes, you know... be a good person". He showed me a little 4" statue of a saint, and some kind of tabletop locket (I don't know what it's called - it opens and has a photo of a bearded saint on one side, and words on the other). He started telling me about the miracles done by this saint. He never mentioned Jesus during our whole conversation.

I had a pocket New Testament and shared with him scriptures showing that it's Christ alone who saves us, and he did all of the work. Our part is simply to trust in him, and we go to Heaven. I shared the verses in Romans 3, which say there are no good people and we're all sinners. I shared the scriptures about the unnamed crucified thief, who was a criminal who did no good works, who simply changed his mind at the very end, recognized his own sinfulness (contrasted with who Jesus truly was and Jesus' sinlessness) and asked in faith for Jesus to remember him. Jesus promised him Heaven. I shared Romans 4:5 ("But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."). I got the impression that he was touched that I cared about him, but he didn't seem interested in this topic. Please pray for his eyes to be opened to the Gospel and for him to believe and be saved.

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>Guadalupe
Of all Marian apparitions... fiery, spines, sparks... Holy smokes! It shows through 2d. What abominations wouldn't have amused themselves going by that name and losing souls!

Idolatry is such a disgraceful sin, a nail striking the soul, a rabid bark against the Lord... one finds it here once and there again, until it permeates every aspect of one's life. Isn't the slope a slippery one indeed? It tears our agency away as individuals and societies, it normalises degeneracy on every level, to the point of infanticide and ostensive human sacrifice to demons. Monetised snuff. ((( Zeitgeist ))). Lord please speak to the anon's friend, show him even a shimmer of Paul's favour, that by Your own voice he may come to straighten his ways and rejoice in Your mercy. Would you not possibly, Father, consider to also give me and my bros the strength to fear and love You alone? Please let us not remain slaves to sin, this whole pit of golden calves. Please, have mercy. In Jesus' name. Amen.

>>26797
As a Catholic I agree that your friend was definitely misguided

The traditional Catholic view is that salvation is through God by having faith in Jesus and following his commandments ("following his commandments" are what we consider works and sacraments).

With that being said, I don't think he was idolizing that Saint. To worship something means to treat it as God which he obviously did not do. The Catholic "idols" are usually akin to something like the nativity during Christmas time.

With that being said, thanks for helping your friend. God bless you.