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John 3:16 KJV: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


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Celebrating Christmas with idolatry trees and cryptopagan idols seems in violation of Jeremiah 10:1-5
>Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the heavens, though the nations are terrified by them. For the practices of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.
So I propose to use the trees and symbols that are approved and shown to symbolize something without turning it into an idol.
Olive Trees that represent Jesus and his church, God's olive trees whose fruits are peace and union.
And use the iberic tradition of the Three Wise men delivering presents.
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>>26173 (OP) 
Thank goodness we are Christians instead, and not actually trying to justify ourselves by the Law, huh Anon? Even the Biblical Jews couldn't do so.

The old
>"Arise, Peter. Kill, and eat"
adage comes into play yet again, r-right?

Christmas is clearly the Christian celebration of Jesus Christ's birth, and the sign the that God had now come down to mankind once again. Please don't spoil it for everyone, thanks.
Replies: >>26177
>>26175
I'm not trying to spoil it, just showing that someone may abuse it and forget Christ in Christmas.
Israelites that tried to ignore how to celebrate God without idolatry got punished. Just showing s way that doesn't have to be the real one but could help
Really we shouldn't be celebrating Christmas because it has no basis in scripture.
Replies: >>26196 >>26198
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>>26195
>Really we shouldn't be celebrating Christmas because it has no basis in scripture.
Just wondering if Khazarian Mafia fingers typed this post.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202&version=NIV

Really makes you wonder.
Replies: >>26197
>>26196
Where does Luke 2 establish a holiday?
>>26195
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks." 
Romans 14: 5-6 KJV

Why wouldn't celebrating Christmas fall under Christian liberty? Commemorating Christ's birth is not something wrong in itself.
Replies: >>26200 >>26241
>>26198
I'm an amateur, lazy student of the plain quaker movement. Most of their concepts I do not understand at all. Yes, Jesus demanded perfection aspirationally of us, and that means considering God on the daily. But even Jesus kept Holy Days... I just don't get it. And I really don't get the autism in it.

Take "dressing plainly" as a related kind of concept. Some of them genuinely dress like the man on the oatmeal box. Which makes them stand out. Which causes inadequacy/material comparisons between that of the self and that of an other. Making the point "lost".

Another one is "plain speech". Because Thursday refers to "Thor's Day/Lundi's Day/Wotan's Day" and all of that other shit, they start mentally checking themselves to say; "the seventh day of the thirtieth week" instead... The idea being that it makes God happy, moreso than if you spent your efforts on something else.

It all seems like veneer to me; as though each and every one of them have already perfected their oak underneath so they can afford to focus on superficial shit.

Jesus was probably born in the spring similarly to the death/resurrection. I don't mind/care about the specificity of the day. What matters to me is the expression of shared sentiment on the day. Yes, we should have it every day, but we are fallible things and so we have picked a day.

I celebrate Christmas. I do a bad job and it feels mostly like familial duty/obligation. But I try a little, and the trying to understand the point about the three wise men and the gift giving is what matters to me, or what separates me from the heathens who celebrate the same holiday but they buy presents for pets who won't get that significance, or they buy marrital aids to jam somewhere in less of a plain sight. They just seem to sort of ruin the point of it.
Replies: >>26203
>>26173 (OP) 
Oh btw another thing they do is they remember to drag the tree into their house, but then they forget to put the star on the top because the significance of the story's been forgot
>>26200
All I meant was that if God's word doesn't expressly prohibit it, and it doesn't cause your brother to stumble, and it's not harmful to you or others, and you give God thanks, why would a Christian be dogmatic about observing, or not observing, Christmas?

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you."
Galatians 2:3-5 KJV

Paul here is talking about Jewish spies to came into the company of Christians to collect evidence of their alleged lawlessness (e.g., not being circumcised), to accuse them and bring them back into "bondage" (observing the Old Covenant law again, or possibly literal bondage, like prison).

>It all seems like veneer to me; as though each and every one of them have already perfected their oak underneath so they can afford to focus on superficial shit.
You are wise to be able to see through it. They focus on a gnat, and ignore the camel:
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel." 
Matthew 23:23-24 KJV
Replies: >>26241
I just don't like how a legend of Saint Nicholas got turned into commercial
A pagan priest of Thor was about to sacrifice a small boy to an oak tree in the 8th century. 
Saint Boniface struck the hammer from the pagan's hand with his bishop's staff, saving the boy body and soul. 
Then Saint Boniface took an ax to the oak tree, and a mighty wind blew the tree over. 
There, behind the oak, was an evergreen tree. The needles represented eternal life, the tree itself pointing to heaven. 
"Take the Tree and Decorate it" Saint Boniface told the new converts 

We don't worship the tree. We give glory to the birth of Christ our savior. Just as the pagan boy was saved, body and soul.
Replies: >>26294
>>26198
>Why wouldn't celebrating Christmas fall under Christian liberty? Commemorating Christ's birth is not something wrong in itself.
Why wouldn't it fall under Christian liberty to offer a sacrifice which was outside the bounds of God's law (Lev. 10:1-3)? It was not wrong to offer sacrifice, but it is wrong to worship God in a manner of our own design rather than His. That which is not commanded is forbidden.
>Romans 14
This passage of scripture is often cited by many different people to prove many different things often without the caution of careful exegesis or considering how it is consistent with the rest of scripture or even the same author. Consequently, one of the fondest groups to use it is unbelievers who seek to make scripture contradict with shallow quotation. I do not mean to imply that's what's happening here, brother, I am just trying to emphasize the importance of interpreting it in light of the rest of scripture.

Now the proper place to begin the passage is verse 1. The portion about foods and the portion about holidays cannot be interpreted as distinct, since the sentiment and context between them is the same. Romans 14 is among the latter chapters of Romans, following the main body of discussion concerning the basis of Jews and Gentiles being united in one gracious covenant (chapters 1 through 8), and the nature of that covenant in light of the historical changes it suffered following the resurrection of Christ and the apostasy of the Jews (9-12). From chapter 13 on the passages of Romans seem to be more appendices, seeming to briefly spring into isolated topics unrelated to the rest of the book. The passage of Romans 14 continues into chapter 15, up to around the 12th verse. The megapassages of Romans offer us historical insight into the church of Rome, which appears to have been an entire synagogue the vast majority of which (both the Jews and the God-fearers) at least embraced the gospel. Hence, it became necessary as hostility emerged between them to clarify their common reconciliation to God through Christ.

This then enlightens us as to what Paul means when he writes "Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on opinions". We first are expressly commanded to accept the individual and not his belief (as the Greek word for "passing judgement" literally refers to the act of making a decision between multiple options, and the Greek word for "opinions" literally means "reasoning" or "internal dialog"; thought process). The purpose of the whole passage is to encourage a spirit of charity, so that Christian unity is not undermined by overemphasis and inaccuracy on less significant things. Not that both parties really are correct,  but that one party's being incorrect is not sufficient basis for breaking fellowship. I note that this charity is restricted to the adiaphora, or "things indifferent", and does not extend to essential matters like the gospel of Jesus Christ. As he makes clear in verse 4 this command is a privilege of Christian brothers only, and therefore applies in all matters between brothers, and applies to no matters which prove one to not be a brother. 

It is crucial for our understanding that we understand Paul's meaning by "weak" (which generally means "frail" or "sickly" in Greek). This seems to give his opinion as to which of the two perspectives is actually correct, as he never uses the term to describe the other side, but only those who abstain from meats and observe holidays. We ought to consider why in the two topics given one side is both the abstainer (of food) and the observer (of holidays), and how this relates to their being weak? We have already established that the audience of the epistle is composed of Jews and God-fearers who would have been very intimately familiar with the old covenant, and for whom the new covenant was very novel. Unlike the New Testament, the Old Testament contains many specifications for the observation of many holidays which the covenant believer was bound to observe. These holidays often included requirements or restrictions on food, and while the old law in general did not mandate vegetarianism it was often practiced by those seeking to live particularly holy (probably due to it being the natural and intended state of the original creation). 

In both of the topics Paul gives examples of behaviors which are free, but sin is not free even if the sinner insists he does not sin, the passage is not a license for licentiousness. It is unthinkable that Paul would grant permission to heathen worship. The pagans also had many holidays and festivals, which were dedicated to the worship of false gods, and often ate foods which were sacrifices to idols. It should be obvious then that while Paul holds some holidays and some foods to be free, not all of them are. Nobody is free to participate in the worship of false gods.

Then we seem to have arrived at the meaning; the weak man's faith is "weak" because he still believes himself bound to obsolete ceremonies of the old law. Those ceremonies were not willworship since they had been commanded by God, and the Jews of Jerusalem often continued to observe them; even Paul went up to the temple to worship when he visited Jerusalem. So while the Christians were free to abstain from that which they were previously bound, they were not bound to do so. We have a modern analog in this since many converts from Judaism are uncomfortable in abandoning the traditions of their ancestors. The weak man is guilty of sin if he violates his conscience even though objectively no law is violated since mentally there was an act of disobedience, as he may think to himself "I am violating the Lord's will", hence "he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin."

So Paul's intention is not to grant permission for us to invent holidays as if worship was for our own pleasure, but simply to grandfather in those holidays which had been instituted by God. Paul elsewhere condemns "self-made religion", which in that instance happened to include the observation of holidays and dietary restrictions (Colossians 2:16-23). They were even based on the old covenant, though it was a new practice of a Gnostic sect. 
>>26203
>Paul here is talking about Jewish spies to came into the company of Christians to collect evidence of their alleged lawlessness (e.g., not being circumcised), to accuse them and bring them back into "bondage" (observing the Old Covenant law again, or possibly literal bondage, like prison).
I don't think that's correct, I think Paul is speaking metaphorically and implying the master who sent them to spy out our freedom is the Enemy, in order to deceive the Christians to return to bondage (that is, bondage to the law, under which there is only condemnation). The spying out would be in the sense of a military infiltrator. Also note that in Romans 14 it is the abstention (NOT observation) of the holiday which is regarded as freedom.
Replies: >>26243 >>26331
>>26241
>Why wouldn't it fall under Christian liberty to offer a sacrifice which was outside the bounds of God's law (Lev. 10:1-3)?
Under the new covenant, (animal) sacrifices implicitly deny the complete sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. So it's sinful to offer them.
>it is wrong to worship God in a manner of our own design rather than His.
Yes, in the old convenant. However, in this instance, we're talking about new covenant believers remembering Christ's incarnation. I suppose if one attached all kinds of sacred emphasis on (and superstitions to) the arbitrarily-chosen date, there'd be a problem.
>That which is not commanded is forbidden.
Most human activity (Christian-included) is not expressly commanded. Believers meet on Sunday and also at other times of the week - neither of which was commanded. Is it forbidden for believers to meet for worship on Sunday morning or Wednesday night?

>sin is not free even if the sinner insists he does not sin, the passage is not a license for licentiousness.
Agreed; however, we're not talking about fornication, drunkenness, or worshipping false gods. We're talking about a day where we remember an essential part of the Gospel: that God the Son took on flesh and dwelt among us. Appropriately, we don't believe Christmas observance was commanded by God. Join us in fellowship, or don't (it's fine, really). We don't elevate it to the level of baptism or the Lord's Table.

>So Paul's intention is [...] simply to grandfather in those holidays which had been instituted by God.
>Also note that in Romans 14 it is the abstention (NOT observation) of the holiday which is regarded as freedom.
I think you're missing the spirit of this. In 1 Corinthians chapter 10, Paul says to eat whatever is set before you (the assumption is that it's meat sacrificed to idols). He says eat it, but not if it's going to harm your brother's conscience. This is a bold statement of liberty.
What you're saying of our freedom/liberty under the new covenant:
Ignoring holidays and dietary rules that God commanded in the OT = not sin.
Observing Christian holidays God did not command = sin.

I have the liberty to eat meat sacrificed to pagan idols (1 Cor 10:25-27), but not to remember Christ's birth with other Christians if it happens to be December 25th?
Replies: >>26270 >>26331
>>26243
>Under the new covenant, (animal) sacrifices implicitly deny the complete sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. So it's sinful to offer them.
Obviously.
>Yes, in the old convenant.
Has something changed between the covenants? Did we get a new god since then? The duty of man to his creator has not changed. It has never changed, it will never change, it could never change, because it is derived from creation. There is obviously nothing in scripture which grants us the right to make up our own religion, simply because it is the new covenant. If anything this dilution of religion is against the spirit of the covenant, in which the truth has been made clear and pure and we have been brought *closer* to God.
>Most human activity (Christian-included) is not expressly commanded. 
Which is irrelevant since most human activity is not public worship.
>Agreed; however, we're not talking about fornication, drunkenness, or worshipping false gods.
I was not making such charges about this, I mentioned it because I was exegeting the scripture and I could not either draw out its meaning or make my point without mentioning it.
>Ignoring holidays and dietary rules that God commanded in the OT = not sin.
Yes because they were fulfilled in Christ.
>I have the liberty to eat meat sacrificed to pagan idols
No, you do not. "But if anyone says to you, 'This is meat consecrated to idols,' do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake." You have liberty to eat meat without superstitious worry about whether it was sacrificed to idols, but you do not have liberty to participate in false worship.
Replies: >>26275
>>26270
>Has something changed [...]
Plenty. The old covenant was the ministration of death, our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, contained conditional blessings and cursings, was only made with one nation, did not exist from the beginning, and never justified anyone. The new covenant in Christ's blood actually saves. But this question deserves a topic of its own.

>There is obviously nothing in scripture which grants us the right to make up our own religion
True, but we're talking about Christians collectively remembering a central event in scripture - the incarnation of Christ. Don't you think that's a bit of an exaggeration as-applied to Christmas?
>this dilution of religion is against the spirit of the covenant
Collectively remembering what Christ did dilutes what Christ did? I admit Christmas could be observed wrongly if a church invented all sorts of rites and special blessings attending it. Maybe our disagreement is because we're picturing different things. I'm picturing a normal church gathering where the pastor reads from Luke and teaches about the incarnation and what this meant for us.

>most human activity is not public worship.
But the example I gave was. Jews met on the Sabbath (seventh day). Scripture says disciples met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7; possibly 1 Cor 16:2), but there's no scripture commanding this. Were they in sin for doing so?

>"28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat consecrated to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake.
29 'I do not mean your own conscience, but the other person’s'. For why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?
30 If I partake with gratefulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."
1 Corinthians 10:28-31 LSB (I continued with the version you were using)
It expressly states it's not for your own conscience's sake, but for conscience of other people observing you, so they won't think/speak evil of you. So you DO have the right to eat meat sacrificed to pagan idols; with the caveat that the right vanishes when it would give cause to offend, or harm the conscience of, onlookers. It's absurd to think that God permits me to eat at a feast outside Jupiter's temple (with the above caveat), but God forbids me to go to church and hear a sermon in Luke on December 25th.
Replies: >>26276 >>26327
>>26275
This. Very based analysis, Anon. 

And your opening sentence could be a very sound basis for several sermons clarifying for Christians and Jews, if they would care to hear about the vast difference between the Old & New Covenants/Testaments. Everyone involved with Christianity even tangentially could do with more instruction on that topic today -- particularly those on the Internets dealing with jewish/atheist shilling against Christ and His great sacrifice. Cheers.  :)
>>26239
I'm sure ancient Israelites thought that using pagan practices and building statues to honor God was Godpilled.
And that decorating the Nehushtan meant giving honor to Moses and not the object.
But these practices were considered wicked by God.

The reason the cryptopagan Christmas exists was to help pagans join christianity by thinking their religion was the same but with different names, that if you said Thor's tree day was about Christ and Thor was a Saint it wouldn't have mattered if started as a festival for the devil.

You can say that Christ lifted the ban on adopting pagan practices by completing the law but it seems weirdly convenient and against biblical teachings.
Replies: >>26301 >>26328
>>26294
You say that dragging a fir tree into your house and leaving offerings under it does not positively affect your conscience, since it's origins are pagan and the Christian teachings pegged to it are apathetically forgotten, but it does so affect your conscience, since if nothing else modern technocracy treats sentimentality as a sin to be punitively dismissed, yet the holiday still entertains sentimentalism and wistfulness and the virtue of honoring thy kin.

These are positive things to stir in a man even if that man is committed to utter Godlessness as I was for most of my life frankly.

Then there's the fact that my problems are not so much caused by dragging a tree into my house while forgetting to put the star on top signifying my faith in historic Biblical accounts but rather that I keep on picking one of the sins and then keep carrying them out. It's no use to me to present faux-charitably to God a stunning laquer, under which my oak has such rot.

But the main reason I've not joined conservative Quakerism in their abandonment of Christmas is that it's no longer causing me a major tax on nor an excuse for my conscience any more. I partake in some gluttony. I shelter myself from the world's problems a bit. But my pleasures of the flesh aren't being rampantly paraded. I spent most of Christmastide at the yoke to support my kin and I was paid in gluttonous trimmings which I'd sense to be thankful for.

Next year I'll try to give the baby Jesus more of a look in but it's just that Christmas is around the time my relatives become more emotionally and socially needy. If it makes me a worse person it's primarily because I suffer the burn out.
Replies: >>26321
>>26301
That's a great point!
Hope your light can be bright for you and your family
>>26173 (OP) 
All cultures have used symbols of all sorts. Just because a pagan culture may have used a symbol it doesn't mean all use of said symbol is automatically pagan. 
Unless if the symbol is something inextricably pagan, such as a statue of thor, then pagans do not have the monopoly on that symbol. Pagans didn't make trees. 
With all that said, most Christmas practices don't even originate from paganism anyway. 
See the following for more its 28 minutes long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bWSrF7kNpM
Replies: >>26330 >>26343
>>26275
>Plenty. The old covenant was the ministration of death, our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, contained conditional blessings and cursings, was only made with one nation, did not exist from the beginning, and never justified anyone. The new covenant in Christ's blood actually saves
That's brilliant rhetoric brother, but it's intellectually dishonest to give something like this in response to what I actually said there. I made points, which have been ignored and not responded to, with this block of rhetoric as the ghost of a reply. However, it is also mistaken and cannot be brushed off as a different topic. By all means, it is true that the old covenant is inferior to the new covenant, as shadows under the old covenant were enlightened under the new and we have grown in our relationship to God immensely by the revelation of His Son, but according to the substance of the covenants they are one and the same covenant of grace which is established by the same blood of the same Lord. Given that the old testament saints are not burning in hell they were in fact justified, *how* then were they justified? By the gospel (Galatians 3:8), by faith in the promise to come (Romans 4:13). The same as ourselves. Since then they were in covenant with God on the same terms as ourselves, and as we are the heirs of that covenant, anything which was not abrogated is in effect, and that certainly includes our duty not to add to the divine religion.
>Don't you think that's a bit of an exaggeration as-applied to Christmas?
No.
>Collectively remembering what Christ did dilutes what Christ did?
We collectively remember what Christ did in the Lord's Supper. On Christmas we remember our love of material things.
>I'm picturing a normal church gathering where the pastor reads from Luke and teaches about the incarnation and what this meant for us.
That's not a holiday.
>there's no scripture commanding this
There's no scripture which commanded them to do this, but scripture was not the only means by which God spoke to the Church at that time. Given the fact that they indeed met on the Lord's day we can infer that they received a divine command to do so which is also inherited by ourselves through this text.
>It expressly states it's not for your own conscience's sake, but for conscience of other people observing you, so they won't think/speak evil of you
Why would they think and speak evil of you? Would they be right to do so? What does he mean when he says "for the sake of the one who informed you"? In ancient Corinth they regularly sacrificed large meat animals to false gods. Lots of this meat would then be sold in the market. Anyone buying meat would run the risk of buying meat which had been offered to false gods. This is also why he writes that there is no power in idols, there is no magical curse placed on this meat from having been associated with idolatry. But when you are aware that meat was sacrificed to eat it is to join in on the worship of the idol. It sends a message to the one who informed you that it's ok to worship idols. It is not ok to worship idols. That's why you are *not* free to eat the meat.
Replies: >>26331
>>26294
The pagan lineage of Christmas becomes more obvious when you look back at medieval practices before corporations began modifying it for the purposes of selling more commercial goods (it was always about worldly pleasure, though). In the middle ages there was a Christmas practice where a small boy was made "bishop for a day", they would place a mitre on his head and agree to obey whatever commands he made. Traditionally these commands were jovial and served the drunken revelry of the occasion, like, "everybody drink until your glass is empty". This practice was lifted wholesale from the ancient Roman holiday of Saturnalia, where it was identical in every way except the boy was called "king of Saturnalia" instead.
Replies: >>26329 >>26330
>>26328
Based post, the brown swarthy christoids in this thread will dismiss these high iq posts.
>>26328
You didn't watch the video attached to >>26326 did you?
Replies: >>26343
>>26327
>I made points, which have been ignored and not responded to [...]
Tracing it back:
>>26241
>Why wouldn't it fall under Christian liberty to offer a sacrifice which was outside the bounds of God's law (Lev. 10:1-3)? It was not wrong to offer sacrifice, but it is wrong to worship God in a manner of our own design rather than His.
I answered this here >>26243. Your analogy (equating Christmas with animal sacrifice) is too weak to support your argument because celebrating Christmas is not an active rebuke of his salvation like animal sacrifices are.
>anything which was not abrogated is in effect, and that certainly includes our duty not to add to the divine religion.
The OT has examples of assemblies, sacrifices, thanksgivings, and collective oaths by the better kings of the southern kingdom that don't appear to be expressly commanded in the law, yet apparently were not met with God's displeasure. If you want to classify these as some of the broader thanksgiving offerings permitted under the law, then believers can include Christmas under a thanksgiving offering/celebration, or under the numerous NT admonitions to charity, hospitality, and/or thanksgiving.
>We collectively remember what Christ did in the Lord's Supper. On Christmas we remember our love of material things.
His incarnation is remembered at Christmas. There's nothing wrong with taking a day to remember the incarnation as a history-defining miracle in itself: that God would take on flesh and dwell among us.
>That's not a holiday.
Well, that's how my church did it last month. We called it "Christmas" and everything.
>There's no scripture which commanded them to do this, but scripture was not the only means by which God spoke to the Church at that time. Given the fact that they indeed met on the Lord's day we can infer that they received a divine command to do so which is also inherited by ourselves through this text.
That's begging the question - a type of circular reasoning. You're attempting to prove that "anything not commanded is forbidden", and when presented with an example of them doing something not commanded in scripture, you allege it must've been commanded outside of scripture since "anything not commanded is forbidden" and the apostles wouldn't have done anything forbidden. You're assuming the truth of the premise you're trying to prove.
>It sends a message to the one who informed you that it's ok to worship idols.
I think now we're closer to agreement on this portion. In general terms, you're free to eat it as long as it's not causing anyone else to stumble. Perhaps it's wrong for us to celebrate Christmas because it's causing you to stumble.

No one is making you celebrate Christmas - you don't have to. I'm just puzzled as to why you're so dogmatic about it. The man behind the LSB version you're reading, John MacArthur, doesn't seem to be opposed to Christmas if celebrated properly:
https://singjupost.com/john-macarthur-the-truth-about-christmas-transcript/?singlepage=1
Replies: >>26334
>>26331
>Perhaps it's wrong for us to celebrate Christmas because it's causing you to stumble.
Good luck with that. I certainly don't think it's wisdom -- Biblical or otherwise -- to demand that every.single.individual. on the planet discontinue communally celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ (whether accurate timing as to the season or no), simply b/c an anon on a Taiwanese Basket Weaving Forum is dogmatic about it.
Replies: >>26344
>>26330
>>26326
I decided to summarized the points in this video, since most people don't seem to be watching it. 

Christmas Trees:
The first mention of Christmas Trees in the historical record is the following
>"In 1561 an ordinance posted in Alsace declared that each burgher was allowed only one Christmas tree and that his tree could be no more than 'eight shoes' in height". - Tanya Gulevich, Encyclopedia of Christmas & New Year's Celebrations. p. 170
It is unknown where the Christmas tree came from, but in the presenter's opinion the most likely explanation is the following (which was also proposed by Tanya Gulevich):
>In the middle ages Dec 24 was the feast day of Adam & Eve, which was celebrated with a play
>During the seasonal period which Dec 24 is inside, the pine tree is the only tree avaliable due to being an evergreen
>consequently, pine trees were gathered for the play and decorated with apples which were an early form of ornament
>Afterwards the apples were eaten
>most historians that have written on this topic agree that Christmas trees likely morphed from these trees
The date of December 25:
>"The offical calendar of Julius Caesar marked [the solstice] at the 25th... The traditional pagan Roman calendar had left this period as a quiet and mysterious one, and flanked it instead with a festival of preparation and one of completion: the former was the feast of Saturn, the Saturnalia, in the days after 17 December, the latter the New Year feast... from 1 to 3 January." - Ronald Hutton, Stations of the Sun, p. 2
>The earliest source that mentions a pagan holiday on Dec 25th is the Philocalian calendar, which dates to the year 354 A.D., which is actually post emperor Constantine
>Christians were celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th as far back as the mid 200s
>Consequently, it is possible pagans were the ones who copied the Christian's date (and since the earliest record of a pagan holiday on Dec 25th is a hundred years after the records of Christmas on Dec 25th I'd consider that more likely)
>In any case, there is no reason to believe Christians stole the date
Yule:
>"King Hákon was confirmed Christian when he arrived in Norway... He had it established in the laws that the Yule celebration was to take place at the same time as it is the custom with the Christians." - Snorri Sturluson, Heimakringla: History of the Kings of Norway. p.106
>Therefore, Yule was not on Dec 25th prior to Hákon the Good
Why Christmas is celebrated on Dec 25th:
>Early Christians believed that a prophet should die on the same day he was concieved
>Early Christians were convinced Christ died on March 25th, count forward nine months and you get Dec 25th
Santa Claus
Dictionary of English Folklore, Encyclopedia of Christmas & New Years, etc
>In the 1800s Christmas had become a drunken celebration
>Dutch immigrants in New York wanted it to be a family centred holiday
>They still venerated Saint Nicholas after the protestant reformation, and the feast of Saint Nicholas was earlier in Dec
>They moved this feast to Dec 25 & adjusted it
>Saint Nicholas was redressed in the traditional Dutch attire
>Santa Claus was so popular he got exported over the world
>In 1927, a Finnish radio broadcaster named Markus Rautio decided he would rebrand him as Joulupukki which according the wikipedia (and other websites seem to agree) literally means 'Christmas goat' or 'Yule goat' in Finnish, although if you put it in google translate it just says 'Santa Claus'
>In Short, Santa Claus is entirely Christian in origin & as he was exported over the world he started blending with pagan stuff in places Finland & Norway (which is probably where the elves came from) less than 100 years ago
Yule Logs:
>The word [Yule] in various spellings, means a loosely defined midwinter period (not a single day) in the early languages of most Germanic and Scandinavian countries." - Jacqueline Simpson & Stephen Roud,  The Dictonary of English Folklore. p 402
>The first mention of any special log being burned around Christmas was in 1648 in Robert Herrick's Christmas poetry collection
>"Come, bring with a noise, My merry, merry boys, The Christmas log to the firing." - Robert Herrick (1648), Hesperides poetry collection No. 784
>The first specific mention of "yule log" is 40 years after this
>"In ye West-riding of Yorkshie at Xtmass eve at night they bring in a large Yule-log or Xtmass block and set it on a fire..." - John Aubrey (1686), Remaines of Gentksme abd Jualsme, p. 5

The video also address OP's point regarding Jeremiah 10:1-5 funnily enough. In short, the verse is talking about the creation of an idol. 

This is clear in verse 5 of the passage:
>Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
>their idols cannot speak;
>they must be carried
>because they cannot walk.
>Do not fear them;
>they can do no harm
>nor can they do any good.”
Maybe some translations don't use the word idol, but regardless its clear the the object shaped by a craftsman with a chisel, which is specified as being unable to walk, is an idol. 

Maybe some of these traditions are harmful even if they aren't pagan, Santa for example leading to the secularization of the holiday, 
but its important to be accurate about where they actually came from. It seems to me that the only idea which does come from paganism is the Christmas elves, and even then only in the same way that modern depictions of fairies are.
Replies: >>26344
>>26343
I did watch the video, sorry for not commenting. Interesting points. What he said about people repeating a theory they heard online - that was me for awhile. Years ago I was convinced by a layman's website that Christmas celebrations evolved out of pagan traditions. The site's argument wasn't based on historical sources - just superficial comparison of traditions.

>>26334
I only meant the notion as a possibility. I didn't mean to suggest we should stop celebrating Christmas. Under certain unique circumstances, though, I might abstain for that reason (if I lived in Puritan New England, for instance). I'd bet Paul didn't openly work on the sabbath in Jewish neighborhoods during his missionary journeys.
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