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Discussion of Christianity, the Church, and theology

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John 3:16 KJV: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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What are Your Guys on the Eastern Orthodox Church are in of you part of it do you think its the true church what do you disagree with and or agree with?
>>25624 (OP) 
As Orthodox I don't disagree with anything the Church professes. I believe it has complete continuity from the time of Christ and the 2nd Temple until now, with the least amount of doctrinal and liturgical development in comparison to Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. 
>part of it do you think its the true church
I don't really like this question of "True Church", because when it is generally asked it usually completely ignores the complexity of Church history. The Church has always been present but fragments have broken off and need to be healed before they can be put back into place.
Replies: >>25658
Well I left protestantism to join it so naturally I will be biased
Replies: >>25658
Not EO (Anglican) but I think they have real Christianity. There is only one holy catholic and apostolic Church (capital C). Obviously, I believe I am part of it but I have a hard time saying EO aren't. How exactly that works, I accept is a mystery. I leave it to God and trust in His salvation.
They have really nice music and their icons aren't half bad either although I prefer stained glass windows in terms of artistry (they don't serve the same purpose though).

Good to see Orthobros are still around.
The aesthetics of Orthodoxy is pretty cool, i wish Protestants were as cool.
>>25624 (OP) 
>what do you disagree with and or agree with?
There are elements of Eastern Orthodoxy that I appreciate; the Divine Liturgy and many of the prayers of the East are very nourishing spiritually. That said, while the Catholic Church rightly regards the Eastern liturgy as a part of the Church's venerable patrimony, I do not see the same attitude from the East towards the Western liturgy. What attempts there have been to revive the Western Mass in the Eastern Orthodox Churches have been—from what I can tell and judging from the attitude I've seen from Eastern Orthodox Christians online—abortive, experimental, and regarded with suspicion. Such an attitude is not one I can agree with.
Replies: >>25676 >>25705
Online I feel like I have come across a more gradual acceptance of the Western Rite. Maybe this is because of the use of it, among certain Orthodox influencers, as a conversion attempt for persuading Anglicans and Roman Catholics. However, among the laity offline I feel like the attitude is 50/50, simply because most are ignorant of it as the number of parishes is so low. A priest from a Western Rite parish attended my parish for a number of weeks in order to learn the Byzantine Rite from my priest, as this priest was switching to lead a Byzantine Rite parish. The priest mentioned to me that he felt there were some major hiccups within the Western Rite, that seem to create perhaps an unintentional alienation of itself from the rest of Orthodoxy. I could walk into the two canonical Old Rite parishes in the US and be able to follow along fairly easily. However, if I went into a Western Rite parish without preparation I would be completely lost. I completely agree with St. John's Maximovitch's position on the Western Rite, but the nuances of the Western Rite can be stumbling block for many. I suppose only with time will this eventually fade.
I'm a Catholic, so you might expect me to be biased against the Orthodox. However I hold respect for them in keeping their ways and more or less still following the word of Christ unlike most protestant heresies. As far as I'm concerned the issues between the Orthodox and Catholic churches is mostly that of organization, and that it is a matter for priest to debate endlessly, not for lay people to attack each other over. One of us is probably wrong and being a Catholic I'm sure you can take a guess which side I believe is, but we're also both wrong in that neither of us can claim to know what God truly wants for us in his plan, and to say we know God better than what he has revealed to us is Hubris.

I just wish that the Orthobros on Twitter would stop trying to poach Catholics in doubt of their Faith whenever the Pope says something a bit off. Christ told us to love thy neighbor, and I strive to do that with the Orthodox, but that really does test me sometimes. It is not our place as lay people to fight against each other when we agree on so much and the enemy is so obvious.
I only started attending an EO church last month (I have no prior religious background) and I hope to grow in my faith as I stumble forward, pull myself up with the grace of God, and keep on my walk with Jesus.
Though I couldn't go last Sunday due to work commitments, I have tomorrow (this coming Sunday) off and can't wait to go back.
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>>25624 (OP) 
The only problem with Orthodoxy, particularly the ethnic branches, is the same problem that is multiplied in the Romans and exponential in protties: Boomer Clergy. Judaizing, improper catechesis, and liberalism (probably because they are private masons) are keeping parish counts low because even the Orthodox church hop. The wuflu has literally caused apostasy in my neck of the woods because those particular people couldn't separate the flaws of the boomer clergy with the faith and traditions themselves. The most obvious evidence I have against a masonic plot is that there are some members of clergy who are running questionnaires of the recently chrismated Christians, only to then put out semi-official statements to dissuade potential Christians from engaging them to gatekeep zeal against their masters' machinations. Case in point:
Replies: >>25688 >>25691
>Boomer Clergy
What are you even trying to say here? The clergy are too old and not hip with the zoomies? I and many others prefer older clergy, at least when I am seeking spiritual direction. I am not giving confession to or looking for a spiritual father who has no life experience. I don't need the clergy to be my friend, I need them to serve Christ and shepherd the laity. If on the other hand, you are referring to clergy that did not stand up and push back during the Covid crap, I can agree with you. But in that case it was clergy both young and old who fell in line with the Bishops who closed the parishes.

Explain please, because you got me lost on this one.

>improper catechesis
Most likely varies by the parish. I know my current parish we have some catechumens still undergoing catechesis going on 2 years. This should be left to the parish priest to determine when to baptize. We never stop undergoing catechism in Orthodoxy, but we should not expect someone to attain to the knowledge equivalent of a theology degree before they can be baptized. 

I will agree with you on this one. But it is easier to be called out in Orthodoxy, and I think we do a good job at this.

>keeping parish counts low
In my neck of the woods I am not seeing low parish counts. We have multiple missions started up and expanding. Even a canonical Old Rite parish is starting up. My parish is consistently full even on feast days during the middle of the week. 

>running questionnaires of the recently chrismated Christians
Ok, this on is a bit odd. I have never seen this at my parish so not sure how widespread it is.  After looking at that list I am very sad that Kyle, Jeem, and Fr. Brother Nathanael did not make the list! I honestly don't even watch the majority of those on that list anymore, I just don't have the time. Jay Dyer videos way to long in my opinion. I do still listen to Lord of Spirits podcast because it is something different that you don't find talked about really anywhere else. Why on earth is Jordan Peterson on there?
Replies: >>25692
I just watched ~30 minutes of this guy Dyer mentioned in your pic to see what all the fuss is about. From the limited amount I've seen, if he's changing minds, it's not through reason. It's pilpul (in the contemporary imageboard sense of the word), giving the hearer the feeling that arguments are being refuted when they are not; the high-sounding words and tone of voice projecting an image of superior knowledge, therefore you should trust him... because when was the last time you heard your Baptist preacher use words like hypostasis or iconoclasm?
Replies: >>25692
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Most of the boomer clergy will let girls dyke and troon out, during liturgy. When you call them out those same retards get offended on the troon's behalf. I had to remind a priest of the canon which forbids the exact thing, because he was appealing to authority.  Before you ask, its Gangran Council's 13th canon.

>Covid crap, I can agree with you...
Who do you think gave them the orders? Did you know that no member of clergy is paid directly by his own parish? They send the money to the archdiocese, who then pay them out. So how do the masons control the clergy? No close = no pay. Don't believe me? Ask yours!  

Jews are the enemies of God and our faith. These fat losers grew up with Hagee, Graham, and all of those other tele-charismatics telling them and their parents to worship jews and deny the very precepts of our faith. Being so far disconnected from the true church and it's history, it was only too easy, and due to the weak catechesis they join not just the Church but the priesthood with their heretical ideas intact.

>Improper catechesis
I had to attend 3 workshops and was chrismated a few months afterwards. I didn't think anything of it since I studied absolutely everything I could get my hands on regarding Orthodoxy, but there are cradle greeks who think that the eucharist chalice is infinite and other such retarded superstitions that can only come from simpler minds not being properly educated beforehand.

OCA priests have been defrocked because they were telling whores to wear more clothing during liturgy. Their bishops fold like the cowards they are.

>low parish counts
Don't give me that NIMBY crap, unless its a greek church of dying boomers and demoralized idiots or in Alaska, nowhere sees more than 100 parishioners.

How can you? Brother Nathanael only has bitchute to spread his message now due to jewish meddling. Father Peter Heers is literally getting the St. Nektarios treatment, getting defrocked on a technicality and the OCA won't even take him in. 'I am actively telling new Christians that if asked to appear on such panels, to just say "my friend/loved one told me about it" because its obvious they are just wanting to stop its growth.' Please help me spread the word, because to deny a masonic influence on the church is the deny what the "Ecumenical" Matriach Bart and Elipidophoros of the greeks are doing to our faith.

>I saw one thing for 30 mins ergo I'm smart on this subject
>I don't know what public speaking is
I don't think you know much about anything if you think bragging about being ignorant and throwing buzzwords is an argument.
Replies: >>25693
>I don't think you know much about anything if you think bragging about being ignorant and throwing buzzwords is an argument.
The comments of each video were full of people high-fiving the guy for dunking on protestants, and it left me wondering: "were they actually listening to what he said?".

But anyway, here's an argument:

All major denominations hold that the Bible is the word of God.
Therefore, the correctness of each church (and its traditions) that holds this position can be judged by its doctrinal adherence to the Bible.

"Where" or "which church" we got the canon from is irrelevant to the point at hand. Any church that holds the Bible as the word of God validates the Bible as a measuring stick, and this provides a common denominator to compare churches that hold this position.

If a church claims to be the one true church, and also holds that the Bible is the word of God, it follows that if it holds a tradition that is in opposition to the word of God, then that church has self-refuted its claim to be the one true church.

The New Testament epistles contain correction for the Christian churches that had fallen into false practice and incorrect doctrine 'in the lifetime of the Apostles'. Revelation contains warnings and threats to churches (including the removal of their lampstands). If churches had fallen into error and sin in the first generation (while the Apostles were still around to correct them), what makes someone think the same would be impossible a hundred years later, or a thousand years later? And if a church fell into error at some point in the last 2000 years, how could we know when, where, about what, how frequently, and to what degree? Therefore, the Bible is the only reliable measuring stick we have to judge doctrine and practice, and holy tradition is next to worthless - because at best, it's superfluous (not needed for salvation); at worst, a sinful corruption making the word of God of none effect (Mark 7:13).
>How can we know if/how a church messes up?
>Holy tradition is next to worthless
Yeah, I think we're done here, you literally sound like babby's first language model.
Replies: >>25695
Doesn't Orthodoxy claim the Roman church messed up? And Rome claims the Orthodox messed up? Maybe Rome is correct and the Orthodox church is heretical. I mean, "holy tradition" does hold that Rome has Peter and as everyone knows, he is 'The rock'.
Replies: >>25696
Yeah but does the See of Rome have the right to change the Nicene Creed to add an extra clause about the origin of the Holy Spirit unilaterally, without consulting any of the other Patriarchates? If yes you're Catholic if no you're Orthodox.
Replies: >>25697
The point I'm trying to make is that the question is not answerable if you are looking to sources of authority, such as tradition, that conflict with God's word. The Roman interpretation of Matthew 16 is that Christ promised to found his church on Peter. The Bible doesn't say Peter was the bishop of Rome, but "holy tradition" does. The Bible does not teach the doctrine of apostolic succession, "holy tradition does". If Peter had supreme authority, and he had the power and obligation to pass that on to a successor, then it doesn't matter what the Bishop of Rome changes - he's always right. If the Orthodox don't accept the above tradition, why not? Because it conflicts with the Bible? Careful, that's Protestant talk.
Replies: >>25703
I went to a Greek festival a few weeks ago, it was the first time I had actually been in an Eastern Orthodox church before. However something kept nagging me that, while it was very pretty to look at, something kept telling me "this is wrong, this is idol/icon worship and takes away from Christ and His true intentions". it is possible to have art in a way that glorifies God, but something about seeing all the candles, veneration of Mary, etc., felt as if it was detracting from the sole worship of the Trinity.
t. filthy lutheran
Replies: >>25699 >>25700
Brother, we fought a 100 year long civil war just to get to the right answer. That weird feeling you have is the truth of how things have always been being at odds to how distant your upbringing was from it. Look up the 7th ecumenical council and why they call it "The Triumph of Orthodoxy."
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>veneration of Mary
If even God found favor in Mary, and angels hailed her as such, then why can't you?
Replies: >>25702
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Because pic-related is not Mary. It's pagan female deity worship whitewashed to appear Christian. If Mary was here in-person, of course I would treat her with proper respect. But there were no cameras back then - these icons are pure speculation. Pic1 is Roman and pic2 is Orthodox. I concede the Orthodox icons aren't as bad as the Roman ones when it comes to Mary worship.

Jeremiah 7:
16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the 'queen of heaven', and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Also see Jeremiah Chapter 44 for more 'queen of heaven' references.
>If the Orthodox don't accept the above tradition, why not?
The Council of Chalcedon gave Constantinople the same level of authority as Rome, in a canon the Rome refused to ratify. It's a question of the personal authority of the Papacy vs. the legislative authority of the councils. Rome defied heresies in the East brought about by political interventions from the Byzantine court throughout the first 1000 years of the church's existence and was staunchly on the side that came out "orthodox" throughout the first seven ecumenical councils. To the Western church, Rome had been the foundational source of religious authority.
Meanwhile the East, despite paying lip service to papal primacy, regularly disregarded Rome except to confirm the results of councils that they had already held, and even denounced practices of the Latin church during the Quinisext Council and the Fourth Council of Constantinople. That Rome decided to go its own way and excommunicate the Eastern church during the controversies of the 11th century on the authority of the Pope alone was to them the last straw of a bishopric which had become obsessed with the idea of its unique supremacy over the global church, was unconcerned with overthrowing the procedures of the church that establish the basis for orthodox belief, and had been induced into championing the heresies of the Western Germanic Kingdoms to spite the Eastern Roman world.

It's politicking all the way down.
Replies: >>25704
Don't worry about him, its the same preddit tier, marvel snark, bad faith, jumping to conclusion crap rhetoric you will find on facebook. Just block him.
I was in a western rite Church for a bit, the priest actually used the  liturgy of St Germanus of Paris
Replies: >>25706
How was the liturgy? Most Western Rites liturgies are done well. But there was one I saw on YT, not sure the rite used, that just seemed so disjointed.
Replies: >>25708 >>25725
We're all human, my friend. Sometimes the choir leaders makes them repeat parts due to autism and only a fraction of them being classically trained.
it's practically the same thing as catholicism as much as they try to be unique - pharisaic work salvation and idolatry.
Replies: >>25710
Well at least we don't attempt to LARP as the real Christians, whose prophet Luther managed to rediscover everything the Apostles apparently failed to mention 🤣
Replies: >>25711
You haven't read Luther. Why say garbage like this about someone you've never read? At least read The Bondage of the Will, the book everybody reads by him if they've read anything.
Replies: >>25713 >>25714
Any ideology that bears any another name than Christ is immediately suspect. Just like with islam, rebellion wouldn't have spread without the help of jewish book printers making sure of it. Why do you think the west got in so much of a tizzy regarding vulgates? Especially when every mass was in latin, the carols were in latin, and both greek and latin are spoken even today?
Replies: >>25715
Why do I need to read Luther? His actions have caused ceaseless division and heresy. He was an agent of satan, though in his defense most likely unintentionally.
Replies: >>25715
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Looks like you haven't read him either. It's so tiring listening to people who refuse to pick up a book, yet insist they're the ones who understand it more than you. Reminds me of those atheists who always act like they know better than you despite not being Christians and never reading the Bible, but I guess even we do that same exact thing to each other. We sorely lack the brotherly love John wrote of in his epistles. 
>Any ideology that bears any another name than Christ is immediately suspect.
What do you mean? Are you saying that people who agree with what Luther wrote are like those guys who said they were "of Paul" instead of Christ?  [1 Cor 1:12-15, 3:3-5] That would be very disingenuous of you when we have orders of Augustinians, Dominicans, Franciscans, &c. 

Expect Martin Luther to be vindicated. Pope John Paul II even went so far as to praise him.
>There is a need for a new evaluation of the questions raised by Luther and his teaching. Such a re-evaluation has begun from the Catholic side.
>In recent years, however, further study of the thought of the first Reformers has shed light on positions more open to Catholic doctrine. Luther’s writings, for example, show love and veneration for Mary, extolled as a model of every virtue: he upholds the sublime holiness of the Mother of God and at times affirms the privilege of the Immaculate Conception, sharing with other Reformers belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity. The study of Luther and Calvin’s thought, as well as the analysis of some texts of Evangelical Christians, have contributed to a renewed attention by some Protestants and Anglicans to various themes of Mariological doctrine. Some have even arrived at positions very close to those of Catholics regarding the fundamental points of Marian doctrine, such as her divine motherhood, virginity, holiness and spiritual motherhood.

As younger Catholic men continue to see the corruption in the Church and just how deep it runs, more and more of them will come to the realization that Luther was entirely correct in his judgement against the Church of his time. From the recent commemoration in Lund of the Martin Luther's posting of the 95-theses:
>While we are profoundly thankful for the spiritual and theological gifts received through the Reformation, we also confess and lament before Christ that Lutherans and Catholics have wounded the visible unity of the Church. Theological differences were accompanied by prejudice and conflicts, and religion was instrumentalized for political ends. Our common faith in Jesus Christ and our baptism demand of us a daily conversion, by which we cast off the historical disagreements and conflicts that impede the ministry of reconciliation. While the past cannot be changed, what is remembered and how it is remembered can be transformed. We pray for the healing of our wounds and of the memories that cloud our view of one another. We emphatically reject all hatred and violence, past and present, especially that expressed in the name of religion. Today, we hear God’s command to set aside all conflict. We recognize that we are freed by grace to move towards the communion to which God continually calls us.
>We pray to God that Catholics and Lutherans will be able to witness together to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, inviting humanity to hear and receive the good news of God’s redeeming action.

So you even admit you haven't read him. But why do you need to? You of course know everything. What a laugh. It'll be a very harsh wake up call for you when you realize you'll receive the same treatment as Martin Luther, and as things get worse, might even receive the same treatment as Jan Hus, when you decide to stick up for the true faith as our churches fly LGBT flags and are overrun with theologically liberal garbage. Remember that St. Athanasius was fighting against the Arian heresy, and then he was vastly outnumbered, with nearly every bishop embracing it but him, including the bishop of Rome. That is how we must think of ourselves now.
>I brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule­­ if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us.... With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.
Replies: >>25716 >>25722
No made the claim they know about Martin Luther than anyone else. More like, I don't care about Martin Luther or Pope John Paul II.
Replies: >>25717
So you'll disregard what the Pope says just like that? What are you, a Sedevacantist? You might as well call yourself a Protestant at that point? I'll also disregard what you say until you pick up a book and read.
Replies: >>25718
I am Orthodox...this is the Orthodox thread
Replies: >>25719
>I am Orthodox
So you are a Protestant. But I thought this was a thread about people's thoughts on Orthodoxy, not THE Orthodox thread. The OP is a bit hard to understand, though.
Replies: >>25720 >>25722
Interesting a Catholic referring to an Orthodox as Protestant what with the papal love of innovation and modernism that Protestants love as well.
Replies: >>25721
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Funny you say that. I encourage you to read Pascendi Dominici Gregis (On the Errors of the Modernists) by Pope Pius X.
Replies: >>25722
I've skimmed his work, if he truly was that wound up about it, he could've moved to Greece. But he didn't, he was just the first of  (un?)witting jewish tools used to further split the church. You do know that the Orthodox are the only ones who still don't have women clergy and denounce gays? Since our clergy marry, we also don't have closet homos in our ranks like our Roman brothers have to deal with. 
>What do you mean? Are you saying that people who agree with what Luther wrote are like those guys who said they were "of Paul" instead of Christ?  
Yes, for even St. Paul himself had to tell them to stop it, since He was only in the Service of Christ. Notice that all of the ones you quote are Roman Orders, of whom none but the Jesuits are active, and their fruits are very well known, just as any Roman Catholic what they think of them.
>Point about Pope JPII
So you mean to say that because of rhetoric attributed to him, he acted on that prose? Words without deeds are as faith without works.
>Brings Up Pious X
>Conflating Orthodoxy with rebellion
>Expecting the Orthodox to care what any Pope has to say.
I love you dude, but if you're just gonna fling crap rhetoric, preddit is down the hall. We don't take anyone seriously if they blaspheme, including our own batch of infiltrating masons in Mr. Bart and Elpidophoros. Have a nice day.
It was nice, only was in the area for a little bit and only got to enjoy it a few times, the priest actually retired which is a shame as he was the only priest in the US that had permission to use that liturgy
Orthodox Andrew Wilson made Matt Dillahunty rage quit recently. Afterwards the Q&A turned into Andrew vs the room. Basically, Matt made liberals explode because he said a man is not a woman. 😂
Replies: >>25945
>Matt made liberals explode
Crap, I meant to type Andrew
Fellow Orthodox how accurate is this Bing response? I have been playing around more with its AI features and I asked it to create a rebuttal for me. 
The prompt:
>A rebuttal against the claim that Orthodox Christians use the Church canons and Church fathers the same way rabbinic Jews use the Talmud.

The response:
<The claim that Orthodox Christians use the Church canons and Church fathers the same way rabbinic Jews use the Talmud is based on a misunderstanding of both traditions. The Church canons and Church fathers are not sources of authority in themselves, but rather witnesses to the apostolic tradition that is preserved and transmitted by the Holy Spirit in the Church. The Church canons and Church fathers are not binding on every Orthodox Christian in every situation, but rather provide guidance and direction for the faithful in different contexts and circumstances. The Church canons and Church fathers are not meant to be interpreted literally or legalistically, but rather spiritually and pastorally, taking into account the whole of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. The Church canons and Church fathers are not static or fixed, but rather dynamic and flexible, allowing for development and adaptation in response to new challenges and opportunities.

The Talmud, on the other hand, is a collection of rabbinic interpretations and discussions of the Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible) and other Jewish laws and customs. The Talmud is considered by rabbinic Jews to be an authoritative source of Jewish law and theology, derived from an oral tradition that goes back to Moses. The Talmud is binding on every observant Jew in every situation, unless there is a clear contradiction or exception. The Talmud is meant to be interpreted literally and legalistically, with every word and letter having significance and implications. The Talmud is static and fixed, not allowing for any change or innovation that contradicts or deviates from its teachings.

Therefore, it is clear that Orthodox Christians use the Church canons and Church fathers in a very different way than rabbinic Jews use the Talmud. The former are testimonies to a living tradition that is guided by the Holy Spirit, while the latter are interpretations of a written tradition that is governed by human reason. The former are flexible and adaptable to various situations and cultures, while the latter are rigid and uniform for all times and places. The former are spiritual and pastoral in their application, while the latter are literal and legalistic in their enforcement.
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