/christian/ - christian

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>>22783 (OP) 
>Thoughts? Would like to hear from a Russian orthodox especially.
I'm not Eastern Orthodox but if you're actually interested in Eastern Christianity you should probably go to your nearest Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic parish and talk to the priest there instead of watching Brother Nathanael videos. If there aren't any in your area you can read Timothy Ware for an overview of Eastern history and theology.

Brother Nathanael is essentially a more unstable and even more Jew-obsessed E. Michael Jones equivalent for Eastern Orthodoxy. His antics are amusing but he's not the best source unless your only goal is to be "based and redpilled".

>>22783 (OP) 
He never discusses scripture or God really, it's always just political nonsense. If you ask me, he probably glows. He also registered as a 501c3 which is a red flag for any church or organization.

Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are two sides of the same coin.  Both are rife with works based salvation, weird unscriptural doctrines and heresies, Mary worship, Pharisaical legalisms, etc.  

Eastern Orthodoxy has its own unique problems, such as the  denial of Penal Substitutionary Atonement:
 
https://youtu.be/89RwCTNeZ_U
 
Hesychastic "Prayer," Palamism, arbitrary acceptance and rejection of councils, Aerial Tollhouses, and an overall drive to make even laity as much like monks as possible even if they do not desire to be monks.

If you're looking at Eastern Orthodoxy as a possible "Catholicism without the baggage and insanity," keep looking.  You'd just be going from one frying pan to another.

Frankly, if you really want a true "Catholicism without the baggage and insanity," join up with a Confessional Lutheran denomination like LCMS, WELS or ELS.

>>22796
>Penal Substitutionary Atonement
Scripture never says this, it says that Christ is the Lamb of God, unblemished and perfect, and sacrificed per the old law of Moses, to fulfill the law... and that's all I need to know and I've met many protestants that felt that Christ died so they could sin. Well, of course not. 

I already looked at conservative Lutherans. 
Scripture describes the Church of Christ, and they don't have the qualities. 

>>22789
>Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic parish and talk to the priest there instead of watching Brother Nathanael videos.
Of course. I noticed that he doesn't talk religion much. 
OTOH, going into see a Priest, Pastor or reverend is a bit like going into a used car lot. That was my experience with the FSSP and then the Sedes. They sell you on one faith, but then start doing another. Making every little thing a mortal sin is against the scripture e.g. the Law of Moses. But they do it to fill the collection basket. People go because they have to confess and then they have to attend mass to receive the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist.  Pretty sure running the Church like  a for profit business and putting a price tag on the Sacraments of the Lord is why Jesus got the whip out.

>>22792
I don't think he glows. glowies are pro israel / zionism but falling into the international Jewish conspiracy theory at the expense of class analysis is just as much of a trap.

>>22800

>Scripture never says this

It is quite scriptural:
https://www.gotquestions.org/penal-substitution.html

>I've met many protestants that felt that Christ died so they could sin.

You'll find antinomians who view the Grace of God as a license to sin in every denomination.  The Catholics and Orthodox who do so, do this by living like hellions throughout the week, going to their priests for confession, and viewing such forgiveness as a go ahead to resume sinning, and to have such sins forgiven at their next confession.  Rinse, lather and repeat.

>Scripture describes the Church of Christ, and they don't have the qualities. 

What specific qualities are you looking for?

>going into see a Priest, Pastor or reverend is a bit like going into a used car lot.

If you want a thorough info dump on Eastern Orthodoxy to research on your own, this site should suffice:

http://orthodoxinfo.com

>>22808

Also, that info dump site is straight from the Eastern Orthodox's mouth.  If you want info from a more hostile outsider looking in perspective, here you go:

https://t.me/s/cursedorthodoxnonsense

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>>22800
>Scripture describes the Church of Christ, and they don't have the qualities. 
Nobody has the qualities by that standard. Do you even satisfy the requirements that you set for your perfect church? Christ came for sinners, and all men are sinners. The only impeccable church is in the Kingdom of Heaven.

>>22809

My bad, the Twitter account is more comprehensive:

https://twitter.com/orthononsense

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>>22810
>Nobody has the qualities by that standard
But the faith is there, in the writing, even if everyone rejects it we should still follow it.

Even if we are damned to hell because there isn't a church teaching to give us the sacraments we should still follow it. 

It's what the Lord Jesus Christ wanted us to do. 

The Church Militant (living member of the Body of Christ) can still exist.

>>22811
As a rule, I don't read anything behind that open mouth meme. By experience, I know it is a waste of time.

>>22814

Fair enough.  I'm just trying to somewhat give you both sides of the issue.  The "Orthodoxy is the greatest thing since sliced bread" viewpoint, and the "Orthodoxy is the worst heretical garbage ever" viewpoint.  You can make up your own mind from what you digest ultimately.

>>22816
> You can make up your own mind from what you digest ultimately.
Fair enough.  
But from sitting on juries, I've come to understand that the adversarial system of "finding justice" is just two sides lying their donkey's off. Is the truth in there? Neither side is interested in truth. 

I just want the faith and morals of the Orthodox. Do they turn everything into a mortal sin so they can sell sacraments of forgiveness? Do they worship Mary as a false god? (apparently not, she's just a saint). Do they believe in personal revelations, and then throw out scripture and popes for some Freemason light show? 

The (current) Catholic Church dodges the issue of what is and what is not a mortal sin. Old way was that a mortal sin is one that is so grave that the Law of Moses called for the death penalty, thus mortal. 
Current Catholics say being late for mass is a mortal sin that will damn you to hell forever. That's not true! It's a deception. No where in the Bible or the Popes speaking ex cathedra does it say this. it's done to turn the Church into a piggy bank, the we all know what  Christ did to those who turned his church into the business of selling sacraments; the whip came out!

>>22838

>I just want the faith and morals of the Orthodox.

The following site:

http://orthodoxinfo.com

will give you that information.  Of course it's going to be biased from an Orthodox perspective, but it will nevertheless give you their faith in their own words, and you'll be able to parse the truth from your own discernment.  

>Do they turn everything into a mortal sin so they can sell sacraments of forgiveness?

No.

>Do they worship Mary as a false god? (apparently not, she's just a saint).

Yes they do.  Here's an example, in their own words, from the site I referenced earlier:

But to the Cross of her Son Mary brought her guiltless, redemptive moral affliction and suffering for the sin of Eve, because it was on account of the sin of Eve that her Son ascended the Cross. Mary suffered on account of Eve and at the very Cross itself, where the sin of Eve was washed away.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/veneration_mary.aspx

From the same link, the Eastern Orthodox expound on how praying to Mary and the Saints, is superior to praying to God directly:

The Christian can pray, "My God, save me." But in the prayer, "My God, for the sake of the prayers of Thy saints, save me," there is more sincerity, more humility, a depth of feeling and a complete defence against pride creeping in if the prayer is successful, a firm foundation for spiritual advancement. In this way, prayer to God, addressed via the holy God-pleasers, stands nearer, closer, to God, and it throws a bridge over the abyss that exists between God and sinners, it humbles the soul of the sinner himself and invokes upon him the good pleasure of God. In their humility, true Christians do not hope on their own prayers, but on the prayers of the saints, and thus they do not think anything of themselves, and they do not glory in the strength of their own prayers hut in those of the saints, they account themselves nothing, they flee from conceit, and thus they are saved. For this reason the prayer of the true Christian is always seasoned with hoping on the concurrent intercession before God of the saints, especially of those to whom he turns to underpin and support his prayers.

The mediation of the saints not only does not hinder or obscure prayers to God, but it actually surmounts every impediment to prayer to God, it removes all the barriers caused by the sin which disturbs the sinner, and it gives wings to prayer. In praying to the saints, a man does not place his hope only in man and put him in place of God, which would be worthy of the curse (Jer. 17:5), but rather he places all his hope in God alone, Who is close to His holy ones and not to sinners, for again we repeat, "the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous and His ears are open unto their prayers.


Look around online for Eastern Orthodox prayers to Mary, and your will find they are just as scandalous and idolatrous as anything you'll read in "The Glories of Mary" by Alphonsus Liguori:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/138927541/The-Prayer-Rule-of-The-Theotokos

>Do they believe in personal revelations, and then throw out scripture and popes for some Freemason light show?

How do you think they came up with the Aerial Toll Houses?:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx

>>22867
Praying to the Servants of God to petition the Lord is right out of the Book of Job. 
Job 42
42 Then Job answered the Lord, and said: 2 I know that thou canst do all things, and no thought is hid from thee. 3 Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore I have spoken unwisely, and things that above measure exceeded my knowledge. 4 Hear, and I will speak: I will ask thee, and do thou tell me. 5 With the hearing of the ear, I have heard thee, but now my eye seeth thee. 6 Therefore I reprehend myself, and do penance in dust and ashes. 
7 And after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. 8 Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. 9 So Eliphaz the Themanite, and Baldad the Suhite, and Sophar the Naamathite went, and did as the Lord had spoken to them, and the Lord accepted the face of Job. 

So, instead of asking for the wrong things, We talk (pray) to the Servants of God (saints) and ask them to pray for us. 
For example, I pray to saint Rocco (patrion saint of Dogs) because I am a dog at the table of Christ, praying for a scrap of bread and a drop of wine from the table of God made to serve my betters. My face is an offense to God, as was the face of Eliphaz. 
The Saints know not to pass on things which we ask for which is not good for us.

>>22874

So did God lie when He said to come boldly before His throne of grace, or did He lie when He said that Jesus is sufficient as a mediator for us? - Hebrews 4:14-16, 1 Timothy 2:5

Was God, through Paul, just babbling about the Holy Spirit within us being sufficient to help us say what we should say even when we don't know what we should say or how?  Romans 8:26-27

Do Saints need to supplement Christ, because His mercy is insufficient in comparison to the mercy of the Saints?  Because His work on the Cross to repair the chasm between God and man is only a half-measure that must be supplemented by a glorified patron pagan pantheon under a flimsy coat of Christian paint?

Why are the Catholics and the Orthodox so hellbent on diminishing Christ on the Cross in favor of giving His Glory over to their barely disguised pagan traditions and superstitions?

>>22874

In addition to that, Job, praying and sacrificing for the forgiveness of his friends is in the context of the Old Testament system of sacrifices through a priest. Job was literally his family's priest.  It's not an eisegetical prooftext for praying to saints.

>>22874

I apologize if this post >>22878 comes off as me being overly angry or cross.  I get riles up when I think about Christ's Glory being reduced.  I also legitimately care about you and worry about the state you're in, in terms of you being "stuck without forgiveness" because of your wife and child not converting.

>>22813 
mate if you believe that why not just go Prot since you're not operating on the grounds that grace is effective via the sacraments performed by a priest validly ordained through apostolic succession but rather sola scriptura and (a nascent form of) sola fide

>>22886
>mate if you believe that why not just go Prot since you're not operating on the grounds that grace is effective via the sacraments performed by a priest validly ordained through apostolic succession but rather sola scriptura and (a nascent form of) sola fide

Not sure how you got that from what I said.  
By faith I mean the dogma of the Church created by Christ, the teachings, what we believed in. 
I think you mean by faith just the belief that Christ is the Son of God. Which is a bit different. You see, we believe Christ is God, so we hang on every word and don't throw out the parts we don't like e.g. Matthew 16 & John 21. 

Most folks here are protestants. 
If I start quoting Papal Encyclicals to Protestants I'd have as much success as Martin Luther quoting the New Testament to Jews. It wouldn't work.

>>22879
Protestants ask living people to pray for them. 
No different. Saints go to heaven and are alive in Christ, so we can ask them to pray to God for us too.

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>>22896

The problem is that you have to pray to saints in the first place in order to get them to supposedly pray for you.  Prayer is an act of worship.  And prayer to the saints, among the Catholic and Orthodox goes far beyond "Hey, would you put in a good word with the Big Guy for me?"

Take a look at the Catholic St. Jude prayer card I reference in the pics.  It literally encourages devotion to St. Jude himself, and to promote such devotion.

Not only that, see also the pic of the Twitter screenshot.  Greater faith in the mercy and intercession of a saint, over the mercy and intercession of Christ, is the logical end of this abhorrent practice.

>>23008
>Prayer is an act of worship
It can be, but it need not be. 
The Glory be is a prayer to praise God, which is a prayer of worship. 
Saying a prayer to a saint always asks the saint to pray to God on your behalf. That is not worship. 
It comes from the Book of Job where the Master tells the petitioners to speak to his servant, Job. 

Why do we pray to saints? Because we may be asking for something that isn't good for us.  Saints clean it up a bit. Like many on /christian/ are praying for waifus... yeah, not good for your soul. Pray that God gives you what you need to save your soul. I pray for grace, forgiveness, and to find the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Praying to God when you're in a state of unrepentant mortal sin ... yeah, not going to be heard.

>>23008
Prayer comes from:
 preiere, "earnest request, entreaty, petition,"
What is done to a saint is a petition for they in turn to pray for us before God. Since we know 'the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective', its in our best interest to ask them to pray for us, because our prayers simply dont have the same power due to our lack of sanctity.
Also we have in Revelation the angels and the elders offering the prayers of the Christians to God, if the prayers are going through their hands, it means intercession while in Heaven. 
The message in that prayer card is basically 'pray for me holy brother'. 
So, if a saint does indeed resolve some issue for you, its correct to thank him by spreading his name as a great intercessor, which is what 'spread the devotion' means. If God works through a saint, its because He wants that saint to be appealed to, and that people look up to his virtue and sanctity.

>>23028
Maybe instead of asking your older brother to convince your father to do something for you all the time you need to man up and ask your father yourself with full recognition of the judgement that you face. If you can't do that you need to evaluate what's going wrong in the development of your faith.

>>23030
>Confront God and make demands while defying him in a state of sin. 
No. 
We're talking God here, the Almighty, Our Lord, the Holy Spirit. It's not like your quite human "dad" who may have treated you unfairly. God's judgement is perfect. 
Beg God for mercy. Ask those in God favor to pray to God for you 
There's a reason why asking saints to intercede on your behalf is in scripture.

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>>23017
>>23028
>>23031

Once again:

Holy Scripture, the Word of God Himself: Come boldly before the throne of grace, Jesus is sufficient as intercessor, because His life, suffering, death and resurrection are sufficient,  His mercy is limitless, and He has great sympathy and empathy for you not only because He is God, but because He directly went through the temptations and trials that are common to every Human being. -Hebrews 4:14-16, 1 Timothy 2:5

Catholicism/Orthodoxy: Jesus was exaggerating, He's not really as merciful as He claims.  The saints and Mary (especially Mary) are MUCH more merciful and approachable than God.  Mary will even accept requests that Jesus won't!

That's literally what the both of you are saying and implying.  


Holy Scripture, the Word of God Himself:  I, the Lord God Almighty, will share My Glory with no one else, and I want you to focus all of your love, devotion, attention and worship upon Me.  No one else.  Any attention to anything or anyone other then Me is the sin of idolatry. -Isaiah 42:8, and literally the entire Bible cover to cover.

Catholicism/Orthodoxy: Isaiah 42:8 was just Me having a bad day!  Of course you can engage in devotions to others apart from Me!  I don't mind them getting the attention and prayers that are due to Me!

As for the predictable eisegesis of Revelation 5:8:

https://www.gotquestions.org/prayers-of-the-saints.html

Also, first pic related: you're not fooling anyone into thinking that prayers to the saints are just harmless non-idolatrous requests.  This doctrine has some really horrific repercussions (see 2nd pic.)  

As for the state of sin affecting your prayer:  If you are a Christian, being in willful sin and rebellion against God will affect your conscience to the point of asking for God's forgiveness and engaging in repentance, before resuming a proper prayer relationship.  

"But God won't listen to your prayer of repentance in the first place while you are in sin!"  Read Hebrews 4:14-16 again.  Does it say "play a game of telephone with the heavenly saints until your prayer eventually reaches the throne of grace," or does it say "come boldly before the throne of grace"?

Seriously, why is Christ's work on the cross so lacking and insufficient to Catholics and the Orthodox?  Why is it not enough?

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>>23031
First of all, how often are you committing mortal sins? The point of repentance is to turn away from even the inclination to sin. What value is your penitence if all you've achieved is to sin, beg for mercy, and to sin again? Forgiven, yes, you may be because the Lord is slow to anger in His patience: but your contrition is imperfect. Don't you know that the end of the commandments is your own well-being, that God seeks your delight in edification? 
"For if we sin willingly after we are to receive the knowledge of the truth, no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire being about to devour the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:26-27

Thus, stop sinning.

Second,
>We're talking God here, the Almighty, Our Lord, the Holy Spirit. It's not like your quite human "dad" who may have treated you unfairly. God's judgement is perfect.
And He judges knowing your past and your future. Are you faithless of your own salvation? Did Christ somehow treat you especially and has not situated you to be purified of all your sins in anticipation of His coming Kingdom? His atonement is one and final: He has delivered His flock from death and pollution. As Jacob prepared the flocks of Laban in Genesis 30 for his glory, Christ has prepared His flocks to be gathered into His glory.

Further, the New Testament literally calls the Lord God Almighty by the Aramaic term for dad:
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of divine adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “'Abba!' Father!” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"
Romans 8:14-16

"Abba: This Aramaic word is found three times in the New Testament (Mark 14:36; Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6), and in each case is followed by its Greek equivalent, which is translated “father.” It is a term expressing warm affection and filial confidence."
NET Bible study notes

And further in the selfsame chapter:
"Now likewise also, the Spirit joins to help us in weakness; for we do not know the things which we should pray for as it behooves, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession with inexpressible groanings. And the One searching hearts knows what is the mindset of the Spirit, because He intercedes for the saints according to God."
Romans 8:26-27

The Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, which accompanies the heart of every believer, makes intercession for their shortcomings. There was no treasury of merit in the first century and neither was one ever needed. For scripture calls us to a personal and committed relationship in faith with our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ, not to a superficial practicum of rituals and observances. Christ was incarnate in the flesh as the lowliest of servants, not a king; He ate with sinners and tax collectors, He healed the sick in spite of their ritual uncleanliness, and lastly He suffered humiliation and was reduced to nothing in death. The Christian God, unlike the god conceived of by the Jews, or by the Muslims, came to share in the sufferings and the joys of the earth, because He so loved His creation and purposed to achieve its redemption. Via the person of Jesus Christ, in whom the fullness of deity dwells, we understand the mysteries of the divine, and towards Christ and Christ alone do we set our faith and worship, zealous for the sanctification which only He can inspire. 

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and it will be opened unto you. For everyone asking receives; and the one seeking finds; and to the one knocking, it will be opened."
Matthew 7:7-8

Study scripture. Meditate on the word of God. Meditate in your supplicatory prayer. Invest yourself in the discourse of the church fathers. Are the saints not your brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you not seek the prize of sharing in communion with them in the Kingdom? Do not short sell yourself of the indefinite miracles which avail themselves through the triumphant cross of our victorious Redeemer. For dominion, and power, and glory are His forever and ever, and may your vocation in His sight be revealed to you. Amen.

>>23038
Tired of the personal insults
I get it. Protestants can post them, Catholics can't. Which is, in the Christian sense, good for the Catholics.

>>23045

I'm not trying to personally insult you.  I'm trying to get you to see how prayers/devotion/worship to saints is unbiblical, degrades Christ's work on the cross, and creates unnecessary separation between you and Christ.  Jesus suffered bitterly to tear the veil separating men from the holy of holies, and viewing Mary and saints as mediators between men and Christ effectively sews that veil right up again, and denies God's own Word that plainly states that Jesus is the only mediator between God and men.

>>23050
Those who believe in Christ, in word, spirit and deed, go to heaven. They're alive. To deny that is to deny the promise of Christ of Salvation. 

These argument made against asking the servants of God to pray to God on your behalf only focus on praying to God. Yes, you can pray to God. If you're in good standing (Catholics define that as without mortal sin, but that's not important) God will certainly hear your prayer. 

But Job 42:7-8 says the LORD told you to pray to his servants if the Lord is angry with you.

'Job 42:7-8'
''After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.'
So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. 'My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly.''' You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”

The whole Bible has to be true. The error of all the scripture quoted is the assumption that the person making the prayer is in good standing with the Lord. Catholics don't believe in faith alone, we believe we can fall into mortal sin and lose favor with God. 

>>23050
>I'm not trying to personally insult you.
Then why the crying wojack meme? That is an insult to all Catholics and it is not even the Catholic belief.

>>23038
>As for the predictable eisegesis of Revelation 5:8:
>https://www.gotquestions.org/prayers-of-the-saints.html
That link doesnt address the argument. That the prayers are going through angels and men to God.
Also see the Lazarus and the rich man story told by Jesus Himself, the rich man appeals to Abraham and Lazarus. And Abraham didnt say- 'whaaat you addressed me instead of God! you crazy!' nor 'cant hear you, im dead' 
Meaning it was common practice already in those times to plead for the intercession of holy people. 

>MUCH more merciful and approachable than God.  Mary will even accept requests that Jesus won't!
Rather, intercession is a chosen  mechanism of God to spread His unfathomable mercy. By allowing the holier to intercede for the lowlier, he allows us to have access to graces we woudnt otherwise have. Because their prayers are worth more than ours, that is undeniable and biblical, i quoted the verse in the last post. 
And this mechanism of mercy starts already in genesis, God tells Abraham to pray for people, like praying for pharao who wanted to have his wife... why not tell pharao to pray instead? 
With Moses the same, Moses always has to intercede for the people. Why not have the plebs pray for themselves?  Because Moses is holier.
By justice, the plebs prayer would have little efficacy, but by mercy, God allows Moses to help the plebs. 

>Isaiah 42:8
His saints are part of His glory, the ones who better conform to His image, not a competitor nor an idol. They lead people to God, not to themselves.

>>23057

You're doing what is called eisegesis, in contrast to exegesis.  You are taking a verse out of context in order to prop up a meaning that you want to find that is not there.  Proper exegesis (using the context of scripture to interpret scripture) would note that in Job 1:5, it is clear that Job is a priest.  

Exegeting the whole of scripture also takes into account the whole Old Testament.  Due to the sacrificial system, as well as Jesus' penultimate sacrifice not happening yet, if one sinned one could not just pray directly to God for forgiveness.  One had to go through a Levitical priest who sacrificed animals and/or grain offerings on behalf of the offender. 

This Catholic here >>23061 >>23062  is performing that exact same kind of eisegesis: using examples from the Old Testament (and a New Testament passage that uses an example from before the death and resurrection of Christ) from when only special individuals, such as Moses, Joshua, Job, David, etc. could have a personal relationship with Christ.

In contrast, in the New Testament, God tells us to come boldly before his throne of grace, and that we are a now royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9.) Our bodies are literally Holy Temples containing God Himself (1 Corinthians 6:19-20.) 

The Holy Spirit is upon all Christians, and we now have the same kind of personal relationship with Christ as did Moses and Job. it is no merely a special privilege of a select few like in the Old Covenant. 

Catholics/Orthodox are unfortunately well known for engaging in eisegesis for their unscriptural beliefs.  Among the most notorious examples, are Matthew 5:21-26 and Matthew 18:21-35, which while in exegetical context are clearly referring to the consequences at the Last Judgement, are often eisegetically utilized by Catholics to flimsily support their doctrine of Purgatory.

>Then why the crying wojack meme? That is an insult to all Catholics and it is not even the Catholic belief.

The prayer that the wojack is reciting is literally a Marian prayer.  When Catholics are confronted with the issue of praying to Mary and the saints, they often respond with "It's just like asking a friend for a prayer, what's the big deal?"  By having the wojack recite such a prayer to another person, it demonstrates how weak this counter-argument is.

>His saints are part of His glory, the ones who better conform to His image, not a competitor nor an idol. They lead people to God, not to themselves.

This is just ignoring the plain meaning of Isaiah 42:8.  And, as outlined earlier in this post, due to the sufficiency of Christ's death and resurrection, which breaks down the separation between God and man, and literally turns us into His royal priesthood, and makes our bodies into temples of His literal presence, their is simply no need for saints to operate in the capacity of Levitical priests or like Moses, etc.  

Praying to saints is clearly nothing more than the product of Greco-Roman paganism syncretizing with Christianity.  Right down to praying to individual saints for hyper specific things in the same way one would have prayed to certain pagan gods/goddesses for specific things (i.e. pray to this saint/god/goddess for good harvest, this other one for safe travel, etc.)

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>>23063
You spent a lot of time telling me that I'm wrong, because I read the scripture as it is, then went on and made some sort of argument (non sequitur?) about "personal relationships with Christ" and how it was limited to a few in the old testament. 
But personal relationship with Christ is a vague concept that doesn't appear to be in the Bible. As in, I looked up what the protestants mean by this and it seems to mean nothing in particular. 100 scriptural references given and not a single one has to do with a PERSONAL relation that gives you the power to interpret Scripture and declare the Church wrong. 

And is it a sin to ask people to pray for you? No. 
Can you ask those who are in heaven to pray for you? You can, because they're alive. Or do you reject eternal life. 

You can go on and tell me what a bad reader or how I don't know how to... interpret the bible as you do. But that's just for you and not me. 

Bible says I need the Church to understand it. 
Bible says pray to the servants of God to petition the Lord. 
Church says that's right, pray to saints. 
That's what I do.

>>23105

Yes I know, the same twisting of words, projection, doubling down, "NO U!", "Only the Church can interpret!", and the same pic(s) with the same eisegetical prooftexts ad nauseum that I've come to expect that I'm not going to waste my time debunking.

Instead I want to get to the meat and potatoes and heart of the issue:  What is your deal?  What is your problem?  What do you want?

You've been posting on this board for awhile to the point that your posting style has become unmistakable in terms of phraseology and subject matter, rendering anonymity pointless for you.  You almost always do one of the same two kinds of posting over and over again.  Either:

a) You post a thread or post in a thread in a manner that inevitably leads to yet another Protestant vs. Catholic slap fight, where you eventually whine about being a persecuted victim when Protestants start arguing back.  Or...

b) You post your personal story about how your Catholic church has messed you over by de facto condemning you to Hell unless your wife and daughter both convert to Catholicism. 

I can only think of three reasons why you post like this incessantly.  Either:

1. You're desperately looking for a way that Catholicism's claim to being the One True Church can be debunked, so that you can escape from being condemned for the sins of your family that you have no control over.  However, simultaneously, you are also so fanatically loyal to Catholicism that you can't help yourself defending the very Church that has effectively doomed you to Gehenna by its Pharisaical legalisms.  Or...

2. You have autism or some other kind of mental illness that compels you to repeatedly and obsessively post on this board and continue the same repetitive and self destructive pattern of behavior.  Or...

3. You're a professional troll, and the aforementioned behavior is the trollsona that you've adopted and are sticking with, for creating the arguments and drama that you crave.

It could also be a combination of the above, such as autism or mental illness fueling your personal quest from reason number 1., or your troll aspirations from reason number 3.

So which is it?  Why are you here and why do you keep posting like this?  Are you desperately looking for a way out?  Do you have a mental issue that compels you to compulsively post in this manner over and over again?  Is this just your personal preferred way of watching the world burn for your own amusement?  Some combination of the above?  I legitimately want to know.

>>23118
>"Only the Church can interpret!"
Which is true. 

I'm going to ignore your ... ad homs and remind you that false witness is a mortal sin. I'll forgive you for that, because it's becoming clear to me that some protestants are taught that such false witness is the way of Christ. 

Look, all protestants who know of the Catholic Church and has had Matt 16 pointed out to them and then reject it go to hell. Even if Baptized and otherwise committed no mortal sin, rejecting Christ's words is rejecting Christ. 

If a protestant is baptised with the right intent, with the right matter of water and words, then they have a chance of heaven, but only if they've never heard of the true church and have never committed a mortal sin.

>>23121

And there you go again, accusing me of lies and ad homs, while you ad hom yourself.

Either answer my question, or I'm going to assume that your de facto answer is number 3 and ignore you for the troll that you are.  Final chance.

>>23122
You did lie about me. You answer every argument I made by lying about me. 
You said I had autism. Lie. 
You said I was a professional Troll. LIE
You said I'm looking for ways CAtholism can be debunked. LIE. 
And you made you lies about what I said look like clipped quotes.
And you're lying in this post. 
Why should I answer your questions when you're just going to make MORE personal attacks and lie about what I said? 
There. You've done it. You got my goat by lying about me viciously. You have no spirit of God in you.  You've won.

I have become convinced that in many protestant religions, the sin of false witness is allowed especially against Catholics. 
Done with this. 
Christ isn't in some people, only hate. and they hope to bring you down to their level. Demons are in them. 
I've never had the Bishop's blow. There is no obligation for me to try and save the wicked from their demons.

>>23125
>>23126

Disappointing but not surprising.  As that old saying goes: "When people show you who they really are the first time, believe them."

Time and again you've shown me who you really are; whether you start threads like this under a false pretext, or you engage in slimy and slippery mental gymnastics, twisting of words, arguing in bad faith or projection.  Especially projection.  Everything you said in these two posts describe your tactics to a T, and you project them on to me.

On the bright side, in my discussions with you, by your behavior and tactics, as well as your arguments and espoused beliefs, I have become all the more convicted and convinced that Roman Catholicism is a false and demonic religion of Satan; not merely just misguided brothers and sisters in Christ.  

A religion so infected with doctrines of demons, that adherents like you are literally willing to defend it even as it damns them to Hell by made up sins beyond their control.  Think about it: you're literally willing to go to Hell for a "church" that flagrantly falsely holds you accountable for the sins of your wife and daughter, that you can't even control.  

You're clearly either a professional troll, or someone with severe mental issues, as these are the only two explanations that explain your obsessive, monotonous and infuriating behavior.  The same posts, the same arguments, the same phrases, the same pics, the same twisting and mental gymnastics and lies over and over again.   

Well, I'm done.  I'm tired of beating my heart against some madman's wall. 

When I say I'll pray for you, I mean it from the bottom of my heart, because it is a colossal waste of my time to try and reason with you anymore.

>>23131
Prove I have autism. 
prove I am a professional troll. 
Explain how it was not false witness to provide quotes that I did NOT say. 
OR confess you bore false witness and stop pretending to be the victim.

>>23105

>You can, because they're alive. Or do you reject eternal life. 

This is what I'm caught up on.  From my readings it seems like when we die we go into the void until the resurrection at the end of days.

The only thing keeping me from standing on that wholeheartedly is that we see Moses and Elijah meet with Jesus on the mountain.

In revelation we have the saints groaning and wondering when they will be avenged by the Lamb, but they are asleep in some sense.

"

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothersc should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been."

It is very hard to find someone to discuss this with in good faith with diehards trying to browbeat others.