What a nice board!
READ THE RULES >>6
Do you even lift? >>>/fit/
Step 0. Resource Acquisition
Go here to get Anki, a flash card program:
Here are some suggested decks:
Tae Kim's grammar: https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/242060646
Click the column of characters you want to study and type the corresponding romaji into the box as they appear
Kana Invaders: https://learnjapanesepod.com/kana-invaders/
Space Invaders/Galaga style clone. Type the romaji to shoot the kana alien
Simply plug the character in and instantly get a stroke order diagram
Type in a word or phrase to hear a native speaker's pronunciation
Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/
Great introduction to Nipponese, you can start here to learn basic grammar and vocabulary
Learn Kanji by using mnemonics and radicals
Mainichi browser extension: http://mainichi.me/
Learn a new vocabulary word every time you open a new tab
Learn Nipponese by playing games (requires registration)
>Alright I've got everything set up, now what?
Fucking LEARN, you bitch. Learn the Kana first, then move on to grammar and vocabulary. I don't have all the fucking answers, I'm just the OP. Maybe you can ask for help in this thread, but who knows if you'll find any worthwhile feedback amidst the shitposting. Honestly you should be able to figure most shit out on your own.
We need to remember to add a link to anon.cafe/lang/ to the OP pasta to comply with the board rules.
Incidentally, y'all should check out anon.cafe/lang/
Anons anons anone oh i love the japs, I will start learning japanese from today.
>pic from fatchan
Now I just hope anons will return here.
Good luck anon. Remember slow and steady wins the race. Because the language throws a lot at beginners and there's very little to cling to at first, a little bit every day goes a long way. And don't feel compelled to pick up absolutely everything you come across; prioritize important stuff or stuff that piques your interest.
Other than the extra burden of kanji (which I recommend picking up with words rather than through individual kanji study), you work your way up the same as with any other foreign language (wh- question equivalents, to be, short self-introduction, there is/are equivalent, do equivalent, can equivalent, giving orders, expressing obligation, etc.).
I found a new eroge circle that I've taken a liking to. I zipped up all their games here if anyone wants to use them for practice. The games are not directly connected but there are recurring characters and world building so I would start with their earliest games (Lady Knight Saga is the first).
Wasn't this supposed to be a game for kids? Why has nobody put Vic Ireland's head on a pike yet?
Tuki no Mizu games always look pretty good, it's too bad they're futafags or I'd probably be all for them too. A lot of doujin eroge are kind of simple, decent for beginners, what with being written by amateur writers and all.
There was only a few futa scenes in Lady Knight Saga. I mainly liked it for the gameplay anyway. 26 hours is pretty good for a doujin game.
I'll play eroge for the gameplay/story too, but if I know beforehand there's something I have a strong aversion to in it, I just can't find it in me to play. I can definitely name a few that go 20+ but yeah, I think the majority of them probably run me 6-8 hours. Pic related: Life of Spirit, a game I mostly played for the story and cool endings, but never did get around to 100%ing. The ero is decent, but the gameplay is such a chore after the first loop. The dev dropped the price of the game to 100 yen or something recently after announcing their newest project.
I guess if I don't download it now, it will disappear in a few days as usual, right?
From the screenshot and size I guess it some older unresizable rpgmaker title. Do anyone know how to make them playable on a monitor that has a resolution higher than 640x480? I guess I could set my screen resolution lower, but in that case everything will be blurry.
>I guess if I don't download it now, it will disappear in a few days as usual, right?
Not unless Mega deletes my account or something.
>From the screenshot and size I guess it some older unresizable rpgmaker title. Do anyone know how to make them playable on a monitor that has a resolution higher than 640x480?
See if your graphics card has integer scaling, then you can play them full-screen with nice crisp graphics.
Hmm, is this a new thing in nvidia control panel? Because I don't remember seeing anything like that last time I checked I hope it's not a feature restricted to the newest shiniest cards. Will check it when I get back to windows.
It's new to me, though I did just get a new graphics card at the same time that I updated my drivers. I don't see why it would be limited to new cards only though.
According to a quick search, it's Turing (so geforce 1600/2000) and botnet 10 only. Why am I not surprised at all?
That sucks, it's such a useful feature. Apparently Intel added it to their drivers too, so if you have a CPU with integrated graphics you could try that.
I have but there's no way I could pass it through to the vm. Maybe I'll try without gpu passthrough, I don't think it really needs a real gpu or just set up a vnc server or whatever.
Some 表外字 (e.g. 掻, 剥) have alternate forms (搔 and 剝 respectively). The former are 簡易慣用字体 (conventional use simplified type I think?) and the latter are 印刷標準字体 (standard printing type?). From what I read, they're interchangeable. However, is one version "preferred" over the other? I'm leaning towards the simplified versions, but plenty of 表外字 retain their 'older' forms (e.g. 蝕, 餌, and 餅 don't use the modern-day 食 radical) (餌 is part of the 常用表 I think).
For those cases, it's good to learn to recognize both because you probably will see them used interchangeably at some point. I would also however generally lean towards the simplified form, especially if you're thinking about handwriting them. When you're typing you could just let your IME do the thinking for you, I suppose. Maybe compare Google results for specific words with the characters swapped and see what turns up more results or something if you want. Even for characters like the 食 radical ones you mention where the old version is still used for some characters in standard fonts, I think a lot of people would probably still handwrite a lot of them using the modern version of the radicals used in jouyou characters, although I'm sure it could depend on the radical/variant in question. Don't have anything concrete to give you showing that it's necessarily more common or anything though.
For the record, windows magnifier (at least the one in 8.1) seems to work fine, it has nearest interpolation not that blurry linear shit and you can easily set it to integer scale ratios. Well, that is as long the game is windowed and doesn't require mouse, but rpgmaker games usually fit that bill.
ngrams can be useful if you want to check how often various forms are used
Have you tried tanalin's integer scaler? It's Windows 7+ and works for all GPUs. It's kind of hit and miss but it doesn't hurt to try. https://tanalin.com/en/projects/integer-scaler/
>it's good to learn to recognize both
I figured that much. It's not like they differ a big deal. My main concern was regarding writing.
> the old version is still used for some characters in standard fonts
I'd be wary of calling them "old versions"; for example 餅 has an actual 旧字体 form (餠), and as far as I know a "shinjitai" form using the modern 飠(i.e. 食) radical doesn't actually exist. To add to the mess, there's also extended shinjitai, and asahi shinbun has a few simplifications of its own.
>Don't have anything concrete to give you
That's fine. I was just asking about conventions because all too often books say one thing and people end up doing another.
Thanks anon, that'll come in handy.
>I'd be wary of calling them "old versions"; for example 餅 has an actual 旧字体 form (餠), and as far as I know a "shinjitai" form using the modern 飠(i.e. 食) radical doesn't actually exist.
I just said old version to call attention to the 食 radical characters you brought up since you called them 'older' forms, didn't mean anything specific by it. Even if there isn't a distinct shinjitai form or whatever for them, it would still be understood that it's a variant of the radical and so people will write it like that irrespective of how they commonly see a specific character in print and different fonts too will use the simplified version of the radical, such as my custom Anki font: HG 教科書体. This website I use occasionally does actually list 餅 as a variant form, even noting it's as being a perfectly acceptable way of writing it during the Kanken test.
>the form with the modern 食 radical apparently exists
Huh, that's curious.
Anyway, I guess I might be looking too much into things. It's just that I feel uneasy if I don't investigate every teensy little detail. Mostly thanks to seeing how instructors in language schools teach "little white lies" or deliberately omit stuff they consider "hard to grasp" to make things 'smoother' for learners, instead of teaching the right thing from the get go (which of course backfires later down the line as people have to waste time unlearning the garbage).
I rediscovered BuSensei's site after it moved to a new address (https://www.bretmayer.com/kanji.html). It's a great resource to help fill knowledge gaps. It has a list of homophones with same kun-reading (異字同訓) and a (non-comprehensive) list of characters sorted by 音符. It also has plenty of proverbs (諺), jukujikun (熟字訓), ateji (当て字), and kanken 1級 vocab (for anyone into that), and a search function for any of the previous stuff.
I'm too retarded and lazy to deal with anki but this page has been helping me a lot when it comes to learning Hiragana.
You should be learning grammar while you're going through Kana
On the contrary, you should be able to get done with kana so quickly and move on that it really doesn't matter if you start doing other things until you're done with them.
Anki is unnecessary for kana anyway. Grinding them out like that is the best way to learn them in the beginning.
Yeah, learning the kana is a good first step.
All dictionaries seem to translate 飼う as 'having' a pet or something similar, but I'm almost certain that it means "come to own" or "start owning a pet", because all instances of it being used for "owning" a pet involve ている, and the only examples I can find where the simple present forms, like 飼う and 飼わない are used seem to refer to making the decision to get a pet.
Am I right about the meaning of 飼う being "come to own a pet" instead of "own a pet"? If so, why do dictionaries (I checked both E-J and J-J dictionaries) do this, define verbs like 飼う and 知る by their ている meaning instead of their actual meaning, without even putting a usage note on the entry? Is there a way to find out if this is the case with other words ahead of time in the future?
>and the only examples I can find where the simple present forms, like 飼う and 飼わない are used seem to refer to making the decision to get a pet
Because those are future tense. Think of it more like "raise" than "own". 飼う is like "I will raise this pet", while 飼っている is "I am raising this pet"
I'm too old to learn a bunch of shit at once. I see other people talking about learning hiragana in hours or a month and it blows my mind. I'm only trying to learn 5 characters at a time and it takes mea few days to get those 5 down. あえいおう were easy and only took a few hours but it's gotten a lot harder from there. Once I've got the basic 46 down then I'll start reading children's books to make sure they stick then move on to katakana after a while of that. That seems like a decent plan anyway.
>I'm too old to learn a bunch of shit at once
Unless you suffered from multiple concussions, thats not how learning works.
The pace you're going at, you'll forget all that you've "learned" before you even begin learning the language.
You'll lose interest and willpower and then a few months later you'll be back to spending weeks to relearn kana.
I already know about a hundred words or so. I'm not starting from nothing and I do learn new words occasionally from other sources like watching anime or the Japanese Ammo channel on youtube
For those two words at least, the J>J dictionaries I mainly use (Daijirin, Daijisen) don't do that. Regardless, I've found J>E dictionaries aren't always totally reliable. For some words there might be modern but less common usages not included or quite rarely there's even some entries that are just kind of wrong although I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.
You don't need to have them down perfectly before you move on, as long as you can recognize most of them most of the time you should be good. You'll be using kana as you learn everything else so you'll naturally improve with time. Actually using them like that is good for really cementing them in memory as well. You're going to have to start learning it all at once soon enough and maybe work on your study technique too, unless you want to spend a few days learning 5 kanji for a couple years next before you really start learning Japanese.
I had planned to just read things that have some kanji thrown in with hiragana and look them up as I go. I just want to be able to read without having to look up a character every few seconds before I start on that. Things would probably go faster if I dedicated more time to kana but I'm only studying for a few minutes at a time throughout the day for a total of 30-60 minutes. At least I've got the first 10 down perfect and only screw up a little on the next 5. I'll probably be ready to start 5 new ones tomorrow.
I reread some sources on ている and looked at how some other words, like 住む work, and I think I've cleared up my confusion.
I was under the impression that the plain present form of action verbs like 飼う should be used for habitual and gnomic but continuously ongoing situations, like in English. Instead, it seems that the present form of these verbs (when used for the actual present) should only be used with habitual situations of the two, while ongoing continuous states, even if they're gnomic, should be expressed with the ている form. Part of my mistake was that I got the idea that the ている form had an aspect of contemporaneity, like the present perfect and progressive in English.
This behavior is different from stative verbs like ある, which use the plain present for both habitual and gnomic cases.
Happy to help.
Japanese verbs can be broken into (at least) 4 categories based on their inherent aspectual properties. You might be able to break them down further, but I've only ever seen grammatically relevant reasons for these 4 classifications. The 4 categories are differentiated by three categories: [+/-durative], having a duration, [+/-stative], referring to a constant state without internal structure, and [+/-telic], referring to a situation with reference to a perfective end-point. The 4 categories themselves are
>Stative: [+durative] [+stative] [-telic]
This class includes the existential verbs ある and いる and the copula だ. It also includes i- and na- (and no-, tari, etc.) adjectives, if you want to include them in this classification.
In terms of usage, the major differences between stative and other verbs is that their "volitional" (よう) form is actually used for presumptions, not volition, hence why でしょう means "probably is" not "It shall be", and that stative verbs do not usually use the ている form. Also, if my new understanding is correct, another difference is that they can be used for ongoing but gnomic states in addition to habitual gnomic ones, whereas other verbs cannot. That is to say, if you always have a dog, you can say 犬がある (in the plain present), or you could say 犬が飼っている (in the continuous present). Both of these describe general truths (gnomic statements), but they are continuously ongoing (as opposed to happening repeatedly or in certain conditions, which would be habitual). The stative verb can express this ongoing-ness state on its own, but other verbs seem to need the ている form.
>Action: [+durative] [-stative] [-telic]
Most people will recognize these as the verbs that default to the "be doing" meaning when combined with ている. They refer doing an action that takes time, and do not refer to that action by way of its completion. Examples include 食べる and 飼う.
The difference between the [-telic] (stative and action verbs) and the [+telic] ones discussed below is also important for 時 clauses.
>Achievement: [+durative] [-stative] [+telic]
These are verbs that refer to an action that takes time to complete, but only refer to it by reference to the achievement of its completion. The prototypical examples are motion verbs, like 行く and 来る. Unlike action verbs, they take the "have done" meaning when combined with ている, but unlike the change-of-state verbs discussed below, they can be used in the sense of "while" in 時 clauses, that is, in certain situations the action leading up to the completion can also be involved.
>Change-of-state: [-durative] [-stative] [+telic]
These are verbs that refer to a (practically) instantaneous change from one state to another, without any internal structure. A common example is 結婚する. Like achievement, verbs they only take the "have done" meaning with ている, but unlike achievement verbs they can never be used in the sense of "while" (at least not as far as I've seen).
Regarding the word "contemporaneity", in English the present progressive is used with situations that are more relevant to the time being discussed than to general truth. For example, both "I live there" and "I'm living there" are correct English sentences that can express that you currently and ongoingly live at a place, but "I live there" would imply that it is a relatively permanent home that you aren't living at temporarily to any degree, while "I'm living there" would usually be used either when you are living at that place to some degree temporarily, e.g. in a dorm during a semester at school, or have recently moved to a new place, as in "I'm living there now".
This doesn't seem to be the case with the Japanese continuous form (ている), as far as I can tell.
が isn't used to mark the object of transitive verbs, which 飼う is.
I'm just glad you can learn a language without remembering all this confusing technical stuff.
A lot of things with language you just know without actually knowing the terms to describe it I think
My bad. That was just a typo because I was just rewriting the ある example without thinking.
Ah come on Anon, this stuff is fun. Plus, better foundations make better practice make better results.
You don't use ある for living things. It would be 犬がいる.
That's not entirely true. In the sense of "there is" (that is, with only one subject), the distinction is simply about animate vs. inanimate, but when used to mean "has", some animate small-subjects (the possessed nouns) can take ある based on their relationship with the large-subject (the possessor).
Still, in this particular case, it seems that いる would have been more natural and that ある is a bit strange (though it doesn't seem to be ungrammatical). I was misremembering the distinction as relative animacy between the two subjects, but after rereading my source, it's actually about the closeness/strength of the possessions. So I guess you would only use ある here if you're as close to your dog as you are your wife?
I can't post the pdf on my source here, so I'll have to link to it: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38393463_Non-canonical_Constructions_in_Japanese
The relevant part starts on the page labeled 209/the 30th page in the actual pdf.
Is there any reason to stay away from kana-only games? To me they seem ideal to test kanji (assuming one's willing to pause, recall the kanji, and optionally, write the words). And as for the kana soup being hard to read, I've observed games generally have spaces/line breaks/punctuation/particles to help delineate most words, and when several words are close together, it's usually common stuff like から, よく, etc.
There's no reason if you already know Japanese, but for practicing it's better to constantly use the kanji. With kana and furigana you are tempted to take shortcuts.
>for practicing it's better to constantly use the kanji
What about rewriting words separately like I said above? Though now that I think about it all-kana does have the problem of making it impossible guess which kanji was meant when multiple options are suitable (e.g. 切る/斬る, 敵を討つ/敵を打つ/仇を討つ/仇を打つ) or tell which words are normally written in kana or kanji, e.g. 悪戯 (usually just いたずら).
>if you already know Japanese
Hardly. While I can more or less understand simple stuff like the pics I posted with a dictionary on the side, I can barely read stuff like a blog post, and at a very slow pace.
>What about rewriting words separately like I said above?
Do you really want a pen and paper out while playing video games? Practice is supposed to be more passive learning.
Actually, even while learning, it can be useful to learn some kana soup *sometimes*. Last time I tried to read some (almost) kana soup it went like
>what the fuck does this word mean
>it sounds familiar but I have no idea what the fuck does it mean
>okay, give up, open jisho
>start typing the word
>IME list of candidates appear
>see the word written in kanji and instantly recognize
I guess it also helps if you're not utter complete shit at listening, but that will have to wait until I reincarnate...
Does anyone know if there is a reasonable translation engine which can read from images, or at least which provides a relatively user-friendly way to look up kanji? I know that's the coward's way out, but all I'm trying to do is see whether or not a certain translation job was as pozzed as it seems to be. I'd post examples here, but then I really would be shirking doing the work.
It's the official translation of Photonflowers.
>relatively user-friendly way to look up kanji
Just use jisho's handwriting or radical lookup tools.
I've heard the OCR on the Google Translation app is okay depending on the font. You're probably already somewhat aware but using machine translations isn't all that reliable for trying to check the accuracy of a translation provided they don't just completely pull stuff out of their ass. There's quite a few fan "translators" that literally just pass text through a translation engine then fix up the English grammar a bit while not knowing any Japanese, for an example that naturally would be hard to catch like that.
And sometimes it's not even japanese that got MTL'd.
>Implying this isn't also how professional localizers do it, at best.
I've seen some translations that are really accurate, Stella Glow being an example, which is rare from fatlus. The worst offender seems to always be NISA. Half the text has nothing to do with the japanese in their releases and they censor a shit load of dialogue because westerners are dumb.
I don't doubt it happens in professional translation too. Just went with that wording because having seen a ton of it personally, I feel like that specifically is more of an issue in fan-translation whereas stuff like PC editor rewrites and censorship tend to be the more common issue in official translations, although also not limited to them. I know there's
From my experience I'd say fan translations are usually shit because it's being translated by idiots who have no clue about the language, and official translations are shit because they deliberately change it to conform to normalfags, sjws, and other kinds of mentally ill people.
So yeah, your best bet is to learn the language, second is to pray and hope you find a decent fan translation. OCR+google translate is like a shit tier fan translation, and good official translations are rare as fuck.
It just so happens I discovered Jisho only a short while after making that post lol. Still a bit on the time-intensive side, but it works. Thanks, anon!
>official translations are shit because they deliberately change it to conform to normalfags, sjws, and other kinds of mentally ill people.
See, that's what I'm concerned about here. The translations of the original trilogy, as far as I can tell, were actually really well-done, even though in Alternative there's a Mishima-esque character they could have easily vilified by distorting his dialogue, but they resisted the temptation and kept his subplot very nuanced. He actually comes off as extremely noble, even in translation.
It's for that reason that I really want to give these particular translators the benefit of the doubt. And also because I don't yet know enough advanced Japanese to read/listen to Photonflowers without subs.
But then, you get to Photonflowers (specifically Altered Fable), and though you can tell the core writing is actually pretty great, they throw in a bunch of Twitter slang that throws the setting off, and also do stuff like pics related. But even THAT isn't cut-and-dry, since, as you can see, they also actively seem to try to defuse their own fucking poz! I can't tell if they're trying to be sneaky, or if they're legitimately trying to chip away at the very same culture of politically-correct "translations" you describe.
I'm sorry for the blogpost, and I wasn't going to post these images here, but maybe it'll give you guys an idea of the bizarre situation that is the Photonflowers translation. There aren't any real spoilers here, since both examples just come from inter-scene banter, but I've spoilered them anyway, just in case.
Well, shit. I clicked "Spoiler" on both images, but it appears not to have mattered. Sorry, anons.
Global report it and tell them to spoiler it if it ever glitches out
>An interesting reflection of Japanese culture in this regard is that,while a husband can possess his wife, a wife cannot poess her husband in the aru construction
I'm surprised the SJWs haven't spazzed out and changed that one a long time ago.
>implying any SJWs speak Japanese well enough to learn or recognize this subtle unsymmetricality in an already obscure and complex construction
Also, if the latino/latinx thing and the fact that they've been bitching about pronouns for a decade (longer in certain areas) and nothing has changed about the way people actually use them has demonstrated anything it's that it is very hard to intentionally change languages at a grammatical level in any short time span. Even if they were aware of it, all they could do is start a similar prolonged hissyfit that might get a couple people repremanded a decade later.
>But then, you get to Photonflowers (specifically Altered Fable), and though you can tell the core writing is actually pretty great, they throw in a bunch of Twitter slang that throws the setting off, and also do stuff like pics related. But even THAT isn't cut-and-dry, since, as you can see, they also actively seem to try to defuse their own fucking poz! I can't tell if they're trying to be sneaky, or if they're legitimately trying to chip away at the very same culture of politically-correct "translations" you describe.
There is a fan patch of Altered Fable from 2016 with none of the poz in it. It only has Meiya, Sumika and Kashiwagi route in it though, but most of the content between routes is shared and you can just play translated Photonflowers for other routes now. I remember playing it years ago and getting PTSD worse than chomp. Beach volleyball is a hell of a thing.
I don't have a link to separate patch and original mediafire link to it appears dead. Here is the full game instead - it needs applocale and a .reg file to run. Install folder is assumed to be in "C:\\Muv-Luv", but you can install it anywhere, replace folder path inside .reg key with notepad, activate and play it.
https://mega.nz/file/XoY2WDoT#35Yashj8yT7FTjxMmw-16a932gyDGvTIvHnaIeiJNxc - Altered Fable (base game downloaded from nyaa)
https://mega.nz/file/a54GwSwY#jBhgAEinrq32fBrS90WnejzvcSU9BMFpf2VvDeKuzoY - registry file that it needs to work
>PTSD worse than chomp
I dunno, the grinder incident fucked me up harder than chomp did even though you don't directly see it
>Here is the full game instead
With the 2016 patch you mean?
>With the 2016 patch you mean?
Yes, it should already be pre-applied unless I'm missing anything.
Why are you posting translation patches in the nip learning thread?
Everyone knows you can't actually learn japanese.
But I did, and so can (You)
Think about how much people make fun of University Japanese courses, then, realize that people who have learned through those alone can pass N1 and work in Japan (I know several people like that)
The only thing stopping you from learning Japanese is yourself and falling for memes that make you waste time
If you mean Japanese you take during a degree, languages can sometimes get you out of sociology or other shitty courses. You can learn an elective thing that you actually want to learn and make progress towards your degree at the same time.
No, I mean people who major or minor in Japanese. The whole thing is persistence/dedication. Taking one or two semesters to knock out a requirement won't help you learn any language no matter how good it is. I mean, if you're also doing self study at the same time, it can't hurt; it well probably be helpful just to have more chances to talk to people in Japanese, but my whole point is that the main reason people fail to learn Japanese is that they give up too soon.
I guess six quarters plus a history and culture course or two would effectively be a minor, right.
Well, see you there in 10-15 years.
Holy shit. Grats. You offially know better Japanese than all the SJW cancer butchering Japanese games mid development.
Holy shit, nice job, anon. How long did it take for you to get to that level of mastery?
According to my order history I ordered the RTK book that I used to start studying in 2012, so I guess around 7 years.
Jesus. Doesn't N1 proficiency mean that you're more proficient than some native speakers?
My first and only Japanese instructor in college told me her husband couldn’t even pass it, and he lives in Japan
To be fair, a big part of that is probably the language knowledge portion of the exam, specifically the portion about grammar. Explicit grammar knowledge isn't something that you get from being a native speaker or from immersion; they only give you the implicit ability to use it.
The JLPT also doesn't say anything about your ability to write or speak, so in that sense it doesn't say necessarily say anything about your overall proficiency.
It does, however show a very high level of ability to understand spoken and written Japanese and a great command over Japanese grammar and vocabulary.
Nah, it doesn't test speaking or writing. If I tried to speak Japanese it would probably be something like this.
>people who have learned through University Japanese courses alone can pass N1
I highly doubt that someone who only learned from classes could pass the N1. A few hours per week isn't enough to learn a language. If you did immersion/self study plus a class, maybe, but then the class would only really contribute to getting an expensive piece of paper saying you can speak Japanese (that isn't the N1).
I took a third year Japanese class when I was in college for easy hours, I doubt any of the other people in it could have passed even the N5.
Fuck, I started 7 years ago and maybe I'd be able to pass N3, if I would start to work on seriously improving my listening skills.
I had some joke course back at university, but I think multiple people got N4. Of course, half of the class disappeared after the end of the first semester
>if I would start to work on seriously improving my listening skills
If you watch anime then just turn off the subtitles permanently. Vtubers are also a good source of listening practice.
I don't really watch anime, and when I tried watching vtubers, I understood about 1% of it >>8234 doesn't count. It's not exactly something that keeps you motivated to continue.
Well obviously you're not going to understand when you first start practicing.
It wouldn't hurt to go out of your way to watch a couple anime just for practice. Generally the dialogue is pretty well enunciated so it's easier to get your foot in the door than if you just outright start with something else with more natural unscripted speech. Voiced eroge are another decent starter into listening since many allow you to replay the audio and you can use the text as a fallback. Just make sure to focus more on audio over text. Otherwise I'd suggest maybe trying videos about a topic you have some familiarity with, like a let's play for a game you've beaten. You could focus less on the gameplay and more on any commentary about the game that way. A long time ago I started watching cooking videos for some extra listening practice because it's kind of a hobby of mine and I had prior read a few cooking manga to pick up some basic terminology about the subject so I was at least relatively set to understand the bare minimum, vocabulary-wise.
Listening to japanese music will probably be a better stepping stone than "long form" media.
Doesn't it test writing knowledge indirectly? Like they gave you a word in katakana, give you a list of words in kanji and ask which of the words shares a kanji with a possible word for the kana they gave, you or some cluster fuck like that.
Um, I'm not completely sure, I mean I usually have problems understanding english songs, and sometimes even songs in my native language.
Yeah, I should watch something, but none of what I tried so far sticked for more than a few weeks. And I tend to be a bit autistic in this regard, that I either have something just playing in the background and not giving a fuck about it, or watch it normally and stop at every single unknown word and look it up in a dictionary, and the same with grammar, cultural references etc except it's much harder to look them up.
You get the usual language test situation. It's easier to select the correct answer from a list of a few possible answers that to produce it without any hints, so let's make the questions as hard as humanly possible and ask for obscure shenanigans that not even native speakers know.
Don't stop to look things up. If you need new vocabulary then you can mine new words from what you're watching, but just note down the time/what you think the word is and come back to put it into your deck afterwards. Otherwise, just work on picking out what you know. The biggest reason to practice listening isn't to learn new words and structures but to be able to correctly segment and parse speech in real time. When you encounter grammar, vocabulary, or culture you don't understand yet, just ignore it and assume you'll learn it later. For that reason, it's best not to start with things you really want to understand all of until you're good at listening. I personally recommend Okayu's game streams on 0.75x or 0.5x speed to start because she speaks very clearly and calmly and has a very standard accent, and you shouldn't care about understanding literally every piece of her commentary.
I wanna start learning japanese but I don't get this anki thing ?
Could you be more specific? What don't you get?
Anki seemed like more trouble than it's worth for me. I use this instead: https://itazuraneko.neocities.org/learn/kana.html
don't touch anki before learning basic grammer and doing some simple reading.
So what should I start with the OP doesn't say anything about total beginners ?
I mean, for kana that's probably fine, because the entire point of Anki is for long term retention, and you should be trying to learn kana quickly that it won't make a difference and will then see them so often that you won't forget them.
Anki is for vocab, Kanji, and maybe grammar if you can make a grammar setup that works for you.
I personally disagree and would recommend people to start doing vocabulary decks at a slower pace as soon as they're confident with kana.
Start by learning the kana. Any way will do, but either what >>8570 said or the deck in the OP under "here are some suggested decks > kana" are readily available. Anki is just a flashcard application that you can use for any topic you want; you need to find or make the decks yourself.
Do kana and grammar. Once you're done with kana, start doing simple reading while doing grammar.
The OP really should have the djt guide linked. Go to the guides and the main guide for some basic starting advice. There's a section of the guide dedicated to getting Anki set up with the Core 2k/6k deck. The guide isn't perfect, I don't necessarily agree with everything it says, but it's a good starting point and chock full of difference resources to check out. It's the same website anon just linked for learning kana.
Here's what I did to learn Japanese, it worked for me:
>use Anki to learn the Kana until I am somewhat confident I can read them
>learn the bare basics of grammar without Anki (I read through Tae Kim once, link is in the OP)
>learn the most common Kanji with Anki (I did too many and worried about writing them, this ended up slowing me down)
>start making sentence cards out of anime subtitles
Don't forget muh immersion™.
itazuraneko is fucking great, even for more advanced learners. There's a guide to modern Japanese grammar written for Japanese people in Japanese, a fucking huge intro to 大阪弁, and a fairly large list of the differences between words like 初め and 始め. Also tons of links for downloading books.
Wew lads thanks for all of these suggestion, I always thought that japanese is a cool language but didn't have the motivation to learn it now with all the cucking and me getting intrested in old vidya changed my mind, I want to learn this language to play all the neat japanese games heck maybe even translate a few of them if I reach a certain level of expertise which me luck lads.
Japan is not immune to subversion, how many time have I got to tell you niggers that? We are already seeing its roots.
Yeah I know about that I just want to play old japanese vidya without waiting for shitty (((localization))) that will ruin the source material.
>The biggest reason to practice listening isn't to learn new words and structures but to be able to correctly segment and parse speech in real time. When you encounter grammar, vocabulary, or culture you don't understand yet, just ignore it and assume you'll learn it later.
I'll add it to the next OP. Did sturgeon finally get bold working?
Here's what has worked for me. At first I really didn't want to learn kana. This was both a mistake and not a mistake. It was good in that it kept learning fun for me in the early stages and made my interest in fully mastering the language grow deeper to the point that I actually wanted to fully master the language up to N1 level. It was bad in that knowing kana is practically mandatory for an English speaker to understand pronunciation. It blew my mind once I started learning kana and realized the entire language really is made up of these small one syllable sounds and suddenly the language was even cooler to me and hiragana seemed fun.
If you don't want to jump straight into kana start with the Japanese basic series on youtube. The first episode is "I'm Yan". If you're into anime start watching a ton and really pay attention to what the characters are saying. When words or phrases stick in your head speak them into google translate to get a general meaning and then do some searching on the internet to see what those words can mean in various contexts. Once your interest is high enough and you start getting hooked on learning move on to kana and watching some youtube channels that teach vocabularly. Japanese Ammo with Misa is probably my favorite one right now. Japanesepod101 is pretty good too.
My way is incredibly slow and inefficient but it's fun and works for me. Once you pass that stage and have mastered the kana start reading children's books to increase reading speed and vocab.
>Don't stop to look things up.
Yeah, but if I do that I quickly lose track of what's going on, and in that case I ends up with having it play in the background and hope that I will pick up something passively. Usually not.
I only put words that occur multiple times into it, but it's still a mess. And the more words I put into it, the more unlikely I'll finish core 6k any time soon.
I dropped the core decks pretty early on. If a word appeared enough that I needed to know it, I ended up mining a sentence for it. It's pretty easy to do that now with a subs-to-SRS type program plus morphman, just search your new cards for the word and put a definition on the back of it.
Don't practice listening using things with overarching stories that you need to follow until you're good enough at listening to do it. Let's plays are probably better to start with because you should be able to recover from it easier. And in any case, giving up and putting it on in the background isn't the right move. Even if you aren't following what's going on you should still be trying to pick out the things you do know.
>I quickly lose track of what's going on
That's normal. Not understand what you're hearing is just a wall you have to get over with practice.
There's like 800 cards remaining, I'm not dropping it now. Even though that'll take something like a half year based on my speed...
Aren't they same thing? I mean games are usually long and they are overarching stories and whatever. Unless of course I've played that game before.
Maybe I should check that からかい上手の高木さん anime, is it any good? The manga was pretty easy and the stories are mostly independent.
Yeah but it's like they say 5 words and I'm already lost. When you read, you have time to stop a bit and think but when they start to speak...
>Yeah but it's like they say 5 words and I'm already lost
Thats why I told you to listen to music
It'll stick in your head and you can easily sing it to yourself.
>Yeah but it's like they say 5 words and I'm already lost.
Like I said, that's normal. Just keep watching anyway. That's the only way you are going to gain listening comprehension.
>Aren't they the same thing
No, because you aren't watching the let's play for the game; you're watching it for the commentator, who shouldn't be sticking on the same topic for more than a couple minutes. If you were watching it for the game then I would just say to play the game instead. Stuff like https://youtu.be/GBRR3ePhTgI is what I mean. Let's plays of games with stories, like https://youtu.be/5rk6qcx4m8k also work but again it's not about following the game's story, it's about following the commentary about the game.
Checking out stuff based on something you've read can indeed be another good way to get started into listening practice. If actually being able to make out pronunciation is a primary issue, I don't think you necessarily have to completely force yourself through it. It's okay to do some rewinding to re-listen or otherwise make things a bit easier on yourself as long as you're still actively working on your listening and you don't get too hung-up on specific things. Give it a proper try with Takagi, but if you're still having an overly difficult time you could try downloading some Japanese subtitles for the show. Rather than just watching with the subs, a better way to make use of them is as a fallback to really make sure your main focus is actually the audio. If you can't discern what somebody is saying, rewind and then turn them on. I did this for the first couple anime I watched and found being able to see what it was I was failing to hear helped me recognize things better henceforth. Just make sure not to stay on crutches any longer than you need to. If the main issue is just keeping up your comprehension speed, however, then forcing yourself to adapt might be the best way to go about it.
As for music, I think it can be of some help but I feel like understanding singing and understanding regular speech are, to an extent, their own skill-sets that each need their own practice. That's my thought as someone who also sometimes has a hard time making out songs in my native English as well as Japanese.
>Let's plays of games with stories
Um, I think I messed up that. I watched her Mother2 stream, but in the end I think I ended up not understanding wither the stream nor the game itself.
>If the main issue is just keeping up your comprehension speed
Probably this, or at least like 80% of the time. Even if I understand the words, by the time I recognize them and the like, they're two sentences ahead.
I should also try to do something with my anki, but the last time I posted screenshots of my statistics, the response were something like "Jesus Christ Anon". Probably the easiest is to just bear it for another half year.
Where can I find a a ROM of this? I was only able to find a Dreamcast ROM in the wrong format and an online-only emulator.
Nevermind, I was running retroarch on the wrong file.
I posted it in the last thread
I hope this doesn't mean she's thinking about stopping it. It's not exactly the most useful thing in reality, but it's fun and interesting to learn some Japanese slang and watch her try to explain it through Google translate.
I was thinking about maybe I could replay some game I played in the past (in English) in original Nip. Is it a good idea? It's probably easier if you know the characters, setting, story, etc, but people in these threads usually discourage people from looking at translations, so I'm not sure.
Yes that's the best way to get started practicing.
If you're thinking about directly comparing lines between the original and a translation it's important to keep in mind that depending on what you're reading/playing there could be any number of issues with the translation, so don't be overly trusting. The people translating may very well be no better at Japanese than you. Even if it's a good translation, it's not going to be able to preserve all the little intricacies of Japanese in English. A translation should generally never be your primary resource in trying to understand stuff in Japanese. Especially not your only resource. Another reason people will recommend against referencing translations is that past the beginning stages of learning, you should actively be trying not to think in terms of your own language; not to translate in your head, to just understand the Japanese for what it is.
Familiarity helps a bit but you have to be really careful that you are actually reading the Japanese and not just recalling your previous playthrough. This takes discipline and it's easier to enforce it if you don't know the material beforehand.
I wanted to replay something I played years ago, so while I still remember the general gist of the story, I probably forgot most of the smaller details. Or that's what I originally thought. If you give your brain a few hints, you will start to remember things you thought you forgotten long ago.
I didn't intend to directly compare the lines, except maybe at places where I'm genuinely lost, but in the past in this cases I usually ended up with realizing that the English translations bears almost no resemblance to the original. And not necessarily because translators being idiot or trying to fuck up like in >>9781, but just because it's some untranslatable gag/pun/cultural reference/etc.
>not to translate in your head, to just understand the Japanese for what it is
Thanks for reminding me how far away am I from learning this shit.
>play vidya that was originally English, translated into Japanese
>the main ideas were translated fine but some stuff was just dropped completely
I suppose translations are universally shit.
Yeah, I don't recommend using translated games as practice. Play games in their native language whenever possible.
Only translation that improved the games are the Western releases of the Ace Attorney trilogy.
the originals are filled to brim with dated memes
Nuance is tough as shit, especially between languages and cultures as dissimilar as Japan (or Russia, or China, etc.) and any English-speaking nation. Naturally, a hard problem needs hard work to solve, but even though they're critical to the quality of the translated game, translation doesn't offer anything to attract the best and brightest people--or even people who have broad experience in both cultures. In addition, I wouldn't be surprised if translation was one of those areas where managers cut timelines in order to make up for delays elsewhere. There's probably a lot of pressure in in-house commercial translation to just ditch things that aren't working out right, that are subtle, or that aren't easy to handle. Farmed out translations probably have the same issues. I imagine they're worked under pretty strict contracts, because nobody wants a bunch of unaccountable outsiders holding up a project.
I seriously hope you don't mean the burger release where you literally can't go two textboxes without some epic unfunny pop culture reference. Zoinks!
I would agree, but I had already played the game in English once and felt like playing it again. It has a semi-official mod to change the voice acting to Japanese so I thought I might as well try it.
Maybe off topic but what's the best RPG I can emulate that hasn't been released in the west? I'd like to try practicing this way but I need a good game I haven't played before. Preferably something with some deep character customization. I hate lazy games that just have a level up system and that's it. I at least need stat points to assign or something.
I highly recommend Growlanser. The first one was never released in the west.
I know I'm a faggot for having this opinion but I can't get into tactical RPGs if they are 2d. I only really like the 3d ones like FFT and some of the Fire Emblem games.
It's more like a real-time-with-pause RPG. You give commands to your party members and the whole map moves at the same time.
I ended up getting a copy of Slayers Wonderful and giving that a try but trying to read the pixelated kana and kanji kind of sucks. I think I'll stick with children's books
>maybe I should replay Atelier Marie, but with a more completionist approach, not just get any ending mentality
>look at event list
>there's like 7 endings
Uh-oh, I'm no longer sure.
Also that site mentions PS Plus is the best version, but somewhere before I read skip the PS version and play with the PS2 version instead.
You could probably not only have a more enjoyable time reading some manga instead of children's books, but also likely learn some more immediately useful things too, depending on what you're reading. Maybe check out some fantasy or isekai series to build up some vocabulary that will likely make your first video game a lot easier to handle. I wouldn't totally count out stuff that got released over here either since the original experience can often be quite different.
i have like 7hs a day free so i decided to finally learn the language,wish me luck bros.
This image is falseties and deceit.
Good luck, anon. You can do it!
>want to learn the 万葉仮名
>had a shared Anki deck of it in my browser history (ID was 1040760361)
<This shared item is no longer available.
I'm a retard for not downloading it when I found it, but does anyone know where I can get it?
I could make my own but it seems like a pain. Thought it might be on itazuraneko, but it was not. Wayback Machine didn't have it either.
>>want to learn the 万葉仮名
Why? Unless you're trying to read Old Japanese, aren't you just better off learning more kanji readings? My understanding is that every Kanji's Man'yougana usage is also one of its normal readings.
>check a word in jisho
>ok, check some J-J dic
Well, fuck. One less site we can use.
Also, my questions in >>10581 still hold.
Remember to do your reps every day so you don't end up like this. Fuck me in the ass, man.
wew lad. I admire your resilience to make it in a single day.
If I ended up like that I'd just drop Anki or at the very least any large backlogged decks. You still had the majority of it all down, so it's not like skipping out for how ever long really even hurt you much at all anyway. I've seen people actively doing their deck with lower recognition rates, even.
I've myself skipped a few days back in the beginning when I had no idea how anki works and I had much less cards. Don't do again, and you'll be alright. Maybe, I'm probably not alright.
Pro-tip: use Custom study->Review ahead if you know you're going to have a few days when you won't really have time to do anki. But it's less than optimal and only really works for 1-2 days, so don't use it unless you need it.
Somehow I never checked out Namasensei's videos when I originally read the OP. I want to link them again in case it helps more people notice the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqJ5wU4FamA&list=PL9987A659670D60E0
This guy's Japanese lessons are hilarious and actually make me feel really motivated every time he calls me a bitch. I was watching from the bed but he called me a bitch and told me to get out my notebook a bunch of times so I did and now I'm practicing hiragana after taking a month or two break from it. I haven't felt this motivated to study the kana in a while. I'm even practicing them in my notebook for the first time since January.
A Japanese friend suggested that I take a break from anime for a bit and watch some Japanese dramas for some more accurate learning. Does anyone know any good ones and where I find torrents for them?
Where do you get those?
Unless you're watching ridiculous over-the-top anime, 90%+ of the language used is the same as what gets used in normal conversations.
If you're really interested in dramas, it shouldn't be too hard to find them if you look. I found a rebbit thread linking to a huge google drive collection on the first page of results for "japanese drama torrents".
why is this in /v/
Just watch vtubers. Both dramas and anime are scripted, so neither is going to be completely realistic.
We met on facebook back when I still used that shitty site. He's technically a Canadian hapa but he went to Japanese school in Canada and attended college in Japan until he went full NEET and got himself kicked out
The reason he suggested I watch some dramas is because we were discussing だ vs です and I mentioned that I've only ever really heard だ once in anime at the end of Steins;Gate but maybe I'm just listening for it enough.
I have been watching this playthrough lately
Um, I wouldn't really call that a Japanese.
>I've only ever really heard だ once in anime
Um, what were you watching? Unless, of course you're wanting a sentence to end literally in だ because we have past tense, other particles added for emphasis/whatever, and of course だ can be omitted in some cases too. I'd say 敬語 is rarer, so don't try to learn formal speech from anime.
||My listening is still shit. but I think there's a sentence ending in だ in stein;s gate ep 1 00:01:50, and zero 敬語 until that||
And fuck up spoiler.
>grew up going to school taught entirely in Japanese
>lived in Japan for years and has a college level knowledge of Japanese language
>Unless, of course you're wanting a sentence to end literally in だ Yes this is what I haven't really heard from watching anime
Fucked up the post at the end there. Why the fuck can't we edit posts and why does the capcha to delete have to be so retarded? Whatever. You guys know how I meant to format it.
I don't think it's much better with です either, okay you can't omit it, but you still have shit like ですよ and you more often end a sentence with a verb anyway. I don't think watching a drama will help much, it'll likely have more です and not だ.
We all fuck up something. Yeah, I miss the preview and edit features from 08chan/millchan
>Yes this is what I haven't really heard from watching anime
Maybe you just aren't paying attention? Right off the bat I can think of the famous line from Evangelion 逃げちゃだめだ
Yeah, you're probably not really going to go an episode of anime without hearing だ numerous times. You either don't yet know enough about the language to discern too much of what's being said and/or you weren't actually paying attention and watching with English subs or something. You might actually find anime to generally be a bit more manageable (depending on the subject matter) at your level than material that's unscripted and more genuine, but it doesn't hurt to check some out. I haven't watched Steins;Gate but those sort of Nitro+ chuuni type series often aren't exactly beginner friendly.
Yep I'm watching with subs and must not be listening closely enough. I'll have to do better at that. Still curious to check out some dramas though because I've seen that recommended in other places. My vocabulary is still pretty small. Maybe 100ish words and they are just mostly random words meaning I can't really form sentences yet. Haven't decided how to advance to that point. I really want to try reading the Youjo Senki light novels with a dictionary at hand because I fucking loved the anime and it doesn't look like it's going to continue but I know that's probably a horrible idea because of all the military terms. I really badly want to read it though.
>I'm watching with subs
If you want to learn you have to turn the subs off.
I tried that with a few episodes of Lucky Star but I was completely lost and didn't learn anything. I usually learn words from matching what I hear with the subs then checking the words online to make sure the translation from the sub was accurate. That's how I've learned over half of the words that I know. I figured with dramas there probably aren't subs available so I'd be forced to try it the hard way and that I would be motivated enough to do it if it was a really cool yakuza drama or something
Can't say I'd recommend a long running light novel that likely has a fair amount of specialized vocabulary in it for a beginner. Probably not even as a first light novel. Starting with some easier material and developing your reading skills for a while first will make the experience a lot more enjoyable and you'll probably thank yourself for it. If you want, try reading the first few pages of it. Once you realize what an undertaking it will likely be at your current level you can shelve it and come back in a couple months, gauge your progress, see how much more tolerable it is and decide if you're ready.
I'm not totally sure what advice I can give you for listening because I did things quite differently than what sounds like you are. I'd already read a few manga and had a fair bit more to go off of before I ever started with raw anime and I'm not totally sure how to best learn through aural input around your level. That said, your method does sound a bit inefficient to me, not to demotivate you. Maybe somebody else can actually suggest something you could do quicken your process. Yakuza-speak will probably be a whole 'nother level or two above you than anime high-school girls, unfortunately.
I'm very aware that what I'm doing isn't efficient, but it is fun, which I think is far more important. I guess I could give some manga a shot at some point. There just isn't any that I'm interested in reading yet. When I was a child I was reading college level novels in English by 3rd grade so reading probably would be the best way for me to advance. I just have to have something I actually want to read and so far 幼女戦記 is the only thing I'm interested in. Hopefully it's not too crazy with the military terms. I'll probably give it a shot this week if I can find the raws on nyaa or something.
>I've only really heard だ once in an anime
No you haven't you're being retarded. Even if you don't count omitted だ, and even if you don't count だ+sentence final particle, this is still super unlikely. If anything, anime is notorious for overusing impolite and hyper-masculine language, both of which use だ often.
Nekomata Okayu and Inugami Korone are good. The former will be easier to listen too at first if you aren't super advanced because she talks slow and clearly whereas Korone is known for her weird accent and lazy speaking.
>Yes this is what I haven't really heard from watching anime
First of all, when people refer to だ-style speech, they're including omitted だs and だ+sentence final particles. Second, again I don't believe that and I think you're just not paying much attention.
だ/です is a verb
>I'm watching with subs
If you mean English subs, you aren't going to learn anything that way. If you mean Japanese subs, you're only going to learn how to read really fast. If you want to practice your listening comprehension, you have to turn subs off.
>My vocabulary is still pretty small. Maybe 100ish words and they are just mostly random words meaning
You probably shouldn't be doing listening practice at all yet. Being able to understand speech requires you to be able to segment it into words in real time, and that is 99% based on your vocabulary and knowledge of grammar. Start doing Anki and grammar.
You won't learn anything new from watching anime (or anything else). Listening practice is for applying things you already know to listening. If you insist on learning through content, reading will do you better, but that's not actually a good idea and you should do Anki and study grammar.
>When I was a child I was reading college level novels in English by 3rd grade so reading probably would be the best way for me to advance
Assuming you actually are some kind of autistic super-genius, no, it probably isn't. Adults are worse at picking language up by using it than children are but better at overtly learning, rationalizing, and judging it, and the more intelligent you are, the faster it is to learn those things.
>だ/です is a verb
Aren't they copulas?
>long running light novel as a beginner
Uh-oh, that's exactly what I did. And gave up. And restarted it a year ago. But at least it's only lightly filled with specialized vocabulary. And I still haven't finished it
>Aren't they copulas?
Yes, and in almost all languages, copulae are verbs.
The primary reason I say that is just that it can be a big motivation killer to spend so long on a single book, let alone try to tackle a 10+ book series. Plenty of beginners have some struggles even with their first manga series. Better to stick with shorter material around when you're starting out to give a sense of accomplishment rather than burn yourself out trying to take on so much at once.
>You won't learn anything new from watching anime (or anything else).
You will, because no matter how much base vocab you learn through Anki, there are always tons more to learn through experience. Though you should probably start with a base of at least a few thousand before you start practicing, 100 is too low to understand anything.
Don't watch with subs, especially never use English ones. Even if you used Japanese subs, I would consider that more reading than listening.
>I really want to try reading the Youjo Senki light novels
Good fucking luck. I watched the anime when I has at an intermediate-high level and barely understood anything. The amount of specialized language in military stuff is ridiculous.
That's sad to hear. I guess I'll just have to live with reading the translated versions and finding some manga to use for reading practice. Munou na Nana is pretty interesting and it looks like it's only going to get a single season so I guess I'll start reading that once the anime ends.
>I guess I'll just have to live with reading the translated versions
Giving up already?
I can't blame him not wanting to wait 10+ years to read something he likes. I do it too
Plus he said he's looking for some other practice material, so it's not exactly give up.
You won't pick up anything at 100 words anyway, you need at least 1000 and a good grasp of grammar, this is my experience at around 500 words.
Don't put it off if it's something you actually wanted to watch.