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What a nice board!
READ THE RULES >>6
Do you even lift? >>>/fit/


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Let's talk about the state of MMO's.Try to keep discussion centered around either free games, private servers, and open source projects for anon accessibility.

MMO NEWS
PSO2 NA dropped onto steam after its hilariously buggy microjew store launch. But on steam it's region locked to north americans and doesn't seem bypassable, whereas if you get it from the microjew store you can get it even as a euro as long as you switch your PC's region to NA.
List of available private servers for some MMO's. Feel free to help contribute to it.
>Dark Age of Camelot
https://playphoenix.online/
>Everquest Project1999
https://www.project1999.com/account/?...
>Warhammer Online: Return of Reckoning
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/about.php
>Shin Megami Tensei IMAGINE Online
https://reimagine.online/
>Starwars Galaxies Legends
https://swglegends.com/
>Ryzom
https://ryzom.com/
>Black Desert
https://crimsondesert.online
>Lineage 2
https://l2classic.club
>FFXI
https://na.nasomi.com
https://ffera.com
https://edenxi.com
>Ultima Outlands
https://uooutlands.com/
>City of Heroes
https://thunderspygaming.net/
>Runescape
http://vscape.wikidot.com/
Replies: >>893 >>4435 >>5064
WoW Private Servers Run Down
21/04/2020
This is my quick run down on the well populated WoW private servers running at the moment. I haven't been around private servers for quite some time now but most of these have remained the same since I last played so hopefully some of my experiences will still hold true. Most of this information was gathered from https://www.dkpminus.com/ and leddit.
Vanilla
>Elyisum, Nighthaven
<Avg. Population 500-1000
<Rates: x1 XP
Old slav elysium team from before the chinks hope split. About as much as you can expect from slavs, toss up between this and Kronos if you want Vanilla. Choice is between which core you think is scripted better and how much you value population.
https://www.elysium-project.org/
>Kronos 3
<Avg. Population 250-500
<Rates: x1 XP
Kronos is still around too. Lower population but if it's the same as it was years ago it's a fine choice if you really want to play vanilla without giving (((Blizzard))) gibs.
https://www.kronos-wow.com/
TBC
>Endless
<Avg. Population 5000+
<Rates: x5 XP
<Released: Febuary 28th, 2020
Seems to be the current biggest non-paymane private server at the moment. See mostly good things when people are discussing it, though it requires a Jewgle email address to signup. Has some custom tweaks to balance like alliance getting seal of blood.
https://endless.gg/
>Atlantiss Netherwing
<Avg. Population 1000-2500
<Rates: x1 XP, recently introduced an option to instantly boost to level 58 instead of leveling 1-58.
<Released: January 4th, 2019
Seems like a decent enough server. They're planning a fresh TBC realm "soon" and are trying to bring new blood into their current one with their instant 58 level boosts. Worth a look if you're wanting to play TBC, but it might be worth it to wait for the new realm instead.
https://atlantiss.eu/
WotLK
>Warmane Frostmourne
<Avg. Population 5000+ While warmane does have highly populated servers, they artificially inflate their numbers.
<Rates: x7 XP
<Released: April 15th, 2020
Warmane servers are notorious for a lot of things, but are consistently populated. This new Frostmourne realm is said to be a "seasonal" realm that will reset after 12 months. Players are migrated to their main "Icecrown" realm after the season is finished and the Frostmourne realm resets. Warmane servers are known for their inflated artificial population claims, though they do actually have a high population. A huge money maker for them is the queue system. Whether artificial or not the servers routinely experience long queue times to get in, which you can bypass by spending money.
You also need a Jewgle email to sign up for warmane.
https://www.warmane.com/
>Sunwell Frosthold
<Avg. Population 2500-5000
<Rates: x3 XP 1-68, x2 XP 68-80
<Released: 16/11/2019
Tried and true sunwell. Good servers, decent pops. Frosthold has custom content that includes "Mythic +" (I assume harder than heroic dungeons), and "Timewalking raids", scaled up Vanilla/TBC raids. Interesting concepts and this server seems worth a good look if WotLK is your expansion of choice. I've heard people take issue with the fact the majority of the server are try hard autistic poles.
https://sunwell.pl/
Cata
>Twinstar Apollo 2
<Avg. Population 1000-2500
<Rates: x3 XP
<Released: January 19th, 2020
The only choice for Cata available. Made by the same people behind Kronos. I personally have no experience with Cata servers. Most of the discussions I've read seem to claim it's a pretty decent server.
https://www.apollo-wow.com/
MoP
>Tauri WoW - Evermoon
<Avg. Population 250-500
<Rates: x2 (Though they have higher rates for other MoP servers on their realmlist)
Tauri is the only real choice for MoP. Their scripting is top tier. Only downside is that the english server is kind of low population, but that's made up for by the cross-realm with the hungarian server in dungeons, pvp, and I believe the AH as well.
https://login.tauriwow.com/?ref=https://tauriwow.com/
Custom/Fun servers
>RetroWoW (Vanilla)
<Avg. Population 500-1000
<Rates: Instant 60
A primarily PvP oriented server. But it does have all the raiding content scaled for 5 mans. It's a very customized realm with custom daily quests for farming gold. 5 man raiding on it can be good fun, but it's not very well tuned.
https://retro-wow.com/
>Ascension Classless WoW (WotLK 3.3.5 core, restricted to Vanilla content)
<Rates: x4-x7 XP
As the name implies, there are no classes. You can pick and choose talents from every tree to build your own class. It's a fun concept, though the world PvP is unbalanced and ruthless. IIRC it has player looting where you can loose your items if someone within 4 levels of you kills you, but that's just my memory from years ago. Maybe it's changed since then.
https://project-ascension.com/
>TBC 5 man (TBC)
<Avg. Population 100-300
<Rates: Instant 70
Very fun 5 man raiding custom server and incredibly well thought out, no attunements required for any raid, stuff like the urn for summoning nightbane can just be bought on a vendor. Bosses are tuned great and it has various NPC's that give buffs and items to makeup for the composition issues of only having 5 players/classes. Raid lockouts are significantly shortened and vary depending on the tier/raid, but most are only a few days long with the longest being around 5 days. Pretty easy to jump into kara and knock out some bosses, though curator is still a decent DPS check.
https://tbc5man.com
Replies: >>879 >>1057
>>878
Also if anyone is interested in running their own local/personal 1.12 server for messing around and testing there's a brainless guide/repack here
https://www.ownedcore.com/forums/world-of-warcraft/world-of-warcraft-emulator-servers/wow-emu-general-releases/613280-elysium-core-1-12-repack-including-mmaps-optional-vendors.html
>>877
>https://crimsondesert.online
Wasn't there a big discussion last thread about this one being dead?
Replies: >>895
>>893
I recall something like that. Was pasting some rather old pastas I had from old zchan so some of the info might be a little out dated.
>>878
>Endless
>jewgle email
I was able to make one with just a trowaway cock account though.
Played only a few hours but it seemed like a fairly decent server.
all mmos are shit
To bad Champions online got abandoned by its devs, forsaken by its studio, overrun by Furries, ERPers and goons...
And the last thing resasambling a dev is a furry now holed up in a discord.
Shit, poor bastards
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How many more millions of years do we have to wait for a decent sandbox MMO to be made?

Ashes of Creation
Camelot Unchained
Crowfall
Defend The Night
Legends of Aria (shards online)

There's one thing that connects all of these; they've been stuck in development for an eternity and seem to never be coming out and/or are changing into something other than a traditional MMO.

It shouldn't be that hard to make an MMO as long as you don't scope it as a competitor to WoW. Just keep it simple. Make something like Runescape Classic with better graphics, Jagex made that with 2 people something like 20 years ago when technology was much worse off, they did it from their parent's house. The bar is much lower now than it was back then, servers are much cheaper than they were back then, so why isn't anyone doing it?
Replies: >>4220
>>4218
>The bar is much lower now than it was back then
Are you fucking stupid?
Runescape classic was dogshit on all accounts. The only reason people even utter its name is because they played it as children because it was free.
Replies: >>4222 >>4230 >>4375
>>4220
Who gives a shit RSC. I'm talking about making a new MMO.
>>4220
It had some neat things. Gameplay not being one of them. I'll agree in calling RS dogshit on virtue of the gameplay alone.
>>874 (OP) 
>doesn't seem bypassable, 
Why would anyone attempt to do this?
>>4220
The only good thing about runescape ever were the markets and the quests, and OSRS ruins both of those with the (((GE))) and fan-fiction tier quest sequels.
Replies: >>4478
How many MMOs let you play your own custom music with in-game instruments? I know Mabinogi was one of them. Audibly shitposting as an autistic bard was some of the most fun I've ever had in an MMO.
Replies: >>4382
>>4377
Lord of the Rings Online is the only other one I can think of. Warframe if you consider that an MMO, but that might be a stretch.
Replies: >>4383
>>4382
GODDAMMIT
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>>877
Thunderspygaming went to shit now that they have trannies on staff. Then again, what else is new for 4um?

That being said: Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst still kicks ass on Ephinea, even though the devs seem to be normalfags, or pandering to them, as shown by this screencap in their tutorial. ||Does anyone have the caps of anons discovering all the lore in CARD Evolution from pre-glow 8chan? I need another excuse to hate PSO2 and everyone who played it, especially the lazy globalfags.||
Also, AdventureQuest 3D is free to play with a one-time premium upgrade package, unlike Worlds having a monthly/yearly fee. Granted, I'm sure it qualfifies as mobileshit to an extent, given the crossplay between PC and (((Android/iPhone))), but I wouldn't know and will shill it anyway. ||DragonFable has been consistently updating every week for years now, and hatching your dragon was about 1/5th of the way through the story of Book 1. Out of 3 so far, the goddamn madmen.||
Replies: >>4450 >>4454
>>4435
What the fuck did the gay fish do to ||spoilers.|| Did he finally fix the format to something not friendly to Diskike rapefugees?
Replies: >>4451
>>4450
Jesus christ it's about time. Pardon the triplepost.
>>4435
>thunderspy went to shit now that they have trannies on staff
Where are the proofs?
Replies: >>4472
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>>4454
I had to go on their Diskuck again to get all of this and I hope you're happy, because I sure as shit am not.
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>>4472
The one and only time I'll use a shitty cuckchan meme because it's on point here
Replies: >>4499
>>4375
>The only good thing about runescape ever were the markets and the quests
The music was also rather enjoyable back in the day.
>>4472
Are you that same fag from the last coh thread who dragged all the shitcord drama in, admitted to being a halfchan poster, and then accused one of the shitcord fags of stalking you through threads?
Also did they actually DO anything?
Replies: >>4511 >>5702
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>>4472
>No caps of Brain repeatedly banishing the word Nigger to smaller and smaller spaces
Time to go back there for more.
Replies: >>4499 >>5700
>>4472
>>4473
>>4497
This was more bait to find the discord niggers and I was not disappointing.
>>4499
You got em, champ.
Replies: >>4501 >>4507
>>4499
>>4500
He did, fucking die swine.
Replies: >>4511 >>5702
>>4499
Well now I know where these nigger ratards are coming.

>>4500
You going to post a bunch of laughing.jpg so you feel like less of a fucking faggot?
Replies: >>4509 >>4511 >>5702
>>4507
No because there's nothing to worry about. And you should go read a book sometime.
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>>4479
>>4499
>>4501
>>4507
Do not make me go back on there just to search for any discussion of spamming this thread.
Replies: >>4515
>>4499
>just pretending
>>4511
Are you >>4304 and >>1814? You act just like him and few others that's been shitting up the place.
Replies: >>4516
>>4515
No, but I'm honored to be a part of your autistic rogue's gallery.
Replies: >>4519
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>>4516
I didn't think you were humble enough to admit to being autistic. Well I guess that's what I'll call you for now on. Autistic Rogue.
Replies: >>4526 >>4542
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>>4519
Replies: >>4527 >>4542 >>5702
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>>4526
Very nice
Replies: >>4542
>>4519
>>4526
>>4527
And that's how bcb55f began his crusade to spam any thread he disagrees with by spamming this image. I'm sorry, everyone. I shouldn't have given him the attention he seeks.
Replies: >>4544
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>>4542
Yeah, this is definitely going into the gallery.
So, whats there to look for
I know there are plenty of Flyff and R.O.S.E private servers
Also there are a couple of Granado Espada and Dragon Nest private servers
theres also Vendetta gaming with their Scarle Blade private server.
And recently i ran into an english pribvate server for Saint Seya Online (they have the 5 basic classes + Sea Dragon and Wyvern, No Lyra or Storm class)
>>4472
I remember there were at least half a dozen other CoH servers out there last I looked. Any that aren't owned by Leandro/faggots now that Brain is sucking dick? There's got to be at least one out there that actually posts changelogs to its site rather than just on jewcord.
Also I guess I'm going to need to go into the costume editor and write down the parts I used for newer costumes since I'm assuming ".v2costume" files won't work on other servers.
Replies: >>5009
>>5008
>I remember there were at least half a dozen other CoH servers out there last I looked.
Do you even know how painfully dead they are?

>Also I guess I'm going to need to go into the costume editor and write down the parts I used for newer costumes since I'm assuming ".v2costume" files won't work on other servers.
They should, unless there are parts that aren't in your server.
>>877
You can leave out Ragnarok Online. That game had a shit ton of private servers a short time after release.
Replies: >>5066
>>5064
Can't
I thought they just censored the height sliders in PSO2, but it looks like they went all out.
https://youtu.be/fI01Cg6IbL8?t=46
Replies: >>5206 >>5210
>>5205
Posting YouTube link should be an immediate ban.
Replies: >>5207 >>5208
>>5206
Agree I hate when these niggers do this shit, I swear the ones who post jewtube links are likely from kikechan or moe.
>>5206
invidio.us dies tomorrow, at least people can youtube-dl links.
Replies: >>5209
>>5208
There are like a dozen other invidious instances.
Replies: >>5316
>>5205
And I thought it was about manletism.
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>start the ffxiv trial
>want to learn how to setup macro's
>mfw
Help. I don't even know where to start.
Replies: >>5286
>>5245
Start by playing a game that isn't made by a company that donated $250,000 to (((Black Lives Matter))).
Replies: >>5438 >>8446
>>5209
And not one of them will be functional by next month, without active development: you seem to have forgotten that youtube has no public API, so they break compatibility every time they feel like it.
Fishing levels?
Whatever happened to those THIS AIN'T YOUR NORMAL TAB COMBAT games like Wildstar?
Replies: >>5328
>>5318
They all fucking died.
Replies: >>5331 >>5333
>>5328
TERA still exists, to be fair.
>>5328
Vindictus is still around.
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SMT Imagine's private server is having its long-anticipated wipe on Oct. 01.
Will any of you play Wizardry when the private servers finally get off the ground, or do you just want a glorified chatroom with no risk to your precious snowflake character? People who played when the official servers were up say that the permadeath was far too lenient, even with the instant-ash traps and universal PVP. Also, the code is up on Git, so /v/ could host their own server instead of playing with Discord fags.
Replies: >>5443 >>5493
>>5286
Companies being virtue signaling nigs is one of the reasons why I stopped paying for games. Can't trust businesses nowadays without the shilling.
>>5434
What can you do in that game?
Replies: >>5444
>>5443
Burn your time grinding characters and then lose them permanently when you die based on a completely random chance.
Replies: >>5445
>>5444
Sounds very fun and not rage inducing at all.
Replies: >>5448
>>5445
Don't you know its "hardcore"?
Don't forget to spend real cash on the microtransaction store for this hardcore game.
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Guess what they added on one of the newest patches to Ragnarok Online.
>>5461
Woah, they added .jpegs. Truly revolutionary and high-effort.
Replies: >>5465
>>5461
Trying to appeal to furfags?
Replies: >>5472
>>5462
>both were pngs
You went and fucked up reddit tier humor, way to go dumb shit.
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>>5463
>>5472
More like kemono snout furry, am I right.
>>5472
If she has a snout, get the fuck out
>>5472
Kemono is just the cuter version of furfaggotry.
>>5434
If the Wizardry MMO has furries, I'll think about it.
Replies: >>5505
>>5493
You can be humies, knife-ears, dorfs, thicc gnomes and hobbits. Furries are PVE. Seriously, the permadeath is not even close to as bad as the pussies say. First you have to raise your soul rank to even be eligible, then you have to not have anyone resurrect you with magic, then fail to resurrect yourself twice with a 95%+ success rate that you can raise even higher by sacrificing trash items, and even if all this happens your soul still carries over and gives your next guy benefits. It's so low risk that PVP fight clubs would spontaneously form in town with spectators blocking off the guards. Also anyone can loot your body, so res fast.
>>5472
Kemono is furry, and that's a good thing.
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>>5472
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>>5461
>newest patches
>saw that shit three years ago
>cat island was already around seven years ago besides
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>>5461
Probably the only servers worth spending time on and the ones anons would play are pre-renewal anyway. There is LeikaRO, but I don't think Dorams are on there either. Speaking of renewal, it seemed pretty cool when I tried it on Leika. Why don't people like it? I assume it was something to do with balance. Leika is specifically about balancing and fixes but I don't know how much the experience varied from the norm.
Which MMO lets me play as a literal clown?
Replies: >>5575 >>5577 >>5605
>>5572
All of them
>>5572
Just pick a suboptimal build.
Any suboptimal build.
Replies: >>5583
>>5577
Isn't that just anything non meta? He needs to go farther than that. He needs to pick the worst build and then be good with it while trying to look as clowny as possible and making constant puns
Replies: >>5597
>>5583
I am intrigued by this proposition and wish to fufill it to both my amusement and the detriment of whoever is subjected to this. I still don't know what game to pick to do this in.
Replies: >>5598
>>5597
Vanilla WoW is probably the best for "trolling" people by playing awful builds, since there are multiple terrible and completely useless builds that infuriate people because of the nature of the game and loot distribution. But Vanilla WoW is also a horribly boring and poorly designed game that isn't even remotely fun to play.
Replies: >>5599
>>5598
>But Vanilla WoW is also a horribly boring and poorly designed game that isn't even remotely fun to play.
Fun is other people.
Replies: >>5607 >>5620
>>5572
didn't that dofus/wakfu mmo let you play as a french clown using the power gained from masks?
>>5599
You don't even get to interact with people in Vanilla WoW. 40 man raiding leads for essentially no VOIP banter. Ironically MMO's are some of the worst games for socializing, even the versions of them people have romanticized as the pinnacle of online social experiences.
Replies: >>5640
>>5599
Hell is also other people. I got banned three times in the year i played Maple Story 2, all of them because some sad faggot reported me for saying off-color shit. Joke's on them, though, since MS2 is dead as fuck now but my rape comedy is eternal.
>>5607
Why would you want to socialize?
Replies: >>5648
>>5640
Is there a problem with socializing?
Replies: >>5649
>>5648
Yes very much so, normalshit.
Replies: >>5657 >>5664
>>5649
>Normalshit
First time here, newfag?
>>5649
Guess what you're doing right now.
>>874 (OP) 
FF XIV now has a larger free trial that includes Heavensward and up to lvl 60
if anyone still cares, has tons of limitations when it comes to using market and doing parties
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>>4497
>>4472
Who got triggered and rage-quit the game? Not the tranny who has thicker skin than you.
Replies: >>5702 >>5735 >>5738
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>>5700
>but our tranny is a cool rayciss tranny so it's okay to indulge it on its delusions
>>4479
>>4499
>>4501
>>4507 and every other post your ESL ass made
>>4526
So, you guys gonna sperg for a good cause, now that we've got a tranny apologist that uses Diskike shilling in this thread? Or will this be yet another "(((fellow anons))) conveniently ignore crossposters just to target an anon commiting wrongthink" episode?
Replies: >>5733 >>5752 >>6835
>>5702
No one cares about shitcord drama.
No one cares about tranny discord drama.
No one cares about coh.
Replies: >>5734 >>5738
>>5733
>no one cares
>just let it happen 
>just like close your eyes lol
Faggot
Replies: >>5739
>>5700
I can't believe you're actually trying to defend a fucking cuckchan tranny because the mutant freak said "muh based raycism, muh based anti-semitism", is this current state of cuckchanners now?
Replies: >>5739
>>5700
>defending a cuckchan tranny
>defending any tranny
The niggers on this board never cease to amaze me. Commit self-die.
>>5733
Complacency is the first step of the subversion of one's culture. If someone is being a faggot, shout them down for it till they and their ilk fuck off from your home. Ignoring them and becoming complacent will only allow them to grow until they become the majority in what was once your home.
Replies: >>5739
>>5734
>>5735
>>5738
I think you are missing the point here. Who gives a fuck about some dead MMOs discord.
 Do you want a personal army? What the fuck do you even want? Go away nigger, no one cares about your tranny discord drama.
Replies: >>5741 >>5742 >>5751
>>5739
Stop trying to deflect the issue you fucking retard, THERE ARE DISCORD TRANNIES LURKING ON THIS BOARD the last time an imageboard accepted them it riddled with pedophile trannies.
Replies: >>5743
>>5739
If there's a tranny or tranny apologist on your board you tell them to fuck off. How retarded are you to overcomplicate and not understand such a simple concept?
Replies: >>5743
>>5741
>Deflecting the issue
I'm not deflecting shit. You ARE the discord tranny.
>D-DEY R ON DIS BOARD RIITE NOOWWW
If they are on this board how are  you going to root them out? Has your niggerbrain thought more than 2 steps ahead? Are you going to jump at every post you think is the tranoind menace and shit up every thread you even SUSPECT is a tranny? What are you going to lay down a rat trap with HRT to catch them or something? 
Imagine sperging this hard over a dead mmo. 
>>5742
you ip hopping now or you are using shitcord to communicate? Hey you are right, I should tell trannys to fuck off. You should fuck off.
Replies: >>5747 >>5748 >>5755
>>5743
You must be quite the fucking retard if you didn't understand me the first time. I'll say it one more time in plain english so that it might get through your thick skull this time. 
If there are trannies on your board. Tell them to fuck off. 
>ip hopping
Different people nigger.
Don't try and call out samefag unless you've got the nose for it faggot.
>>5743
>N-no you're the tranny
Nice projection you fucking dumbass.
>If they are on this board how are  you going to root them out?
Oh very easy, bully them and report them not very hard a thing to do negro
>Has your niggerbrain thought more than 2 steps ahead? 
We've been doing this since 8chan but if you weren't such a newfag maybe you would understand how simple it is to tell invaders to fuck off.
>Are you going to jump at every post you think is the tranoind menace and shit up every thread you even SUSPECT is a tranny? 
Funny for you to say that when you're projecting others by calling them a tranny, also, this board will be shit up if we don't call a faggotry that has no business on here.
>What are you going to lay down a rat trap with HRT to catch them or something? 
Imagine sperging this hard over a dead mmo. 
>Calls someone a sperg
<Spergs out agaisnt two anons because muh board
Amazing, you must be the kind of retard who failed third grade twice niggermonkey.
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>>5739
>i try explaining why CoX is pozzed
<HURR MUH 1488D CHESS TIME TO DERAIL THE THREAD WITH MY SOAPBOXING AGAINST ANONS BEING FORCED TO USE DISKIKE TO POST THE PROOF I ASKED FOR
>you get BTFO over your selective sperging
<i change my mind don't criticize discuck users
So how many more MS Paint edits are you making to own the tranny haters awesome style?
>>5702
>uses  Diskike
You do too. We also use Guilded, a self-hosted Riot instance, Ruqqus, Reddit, Facebook, and image boards. We don't follow terms of service, so we have alternatives for when we're inevitability deleted.
>crossposters
I never liked Brain calling to brigade other sites. I skim the web ring boards every month or so given how slow they are.
Of course I'm gonna respond when you spread bullshit like this. You can say nigger, kike, tranny, and fag all you want. That's never changed. Spamming walls of the same word, no matter the word, is disruptive and annoying to other players.
Your willful ignorance makes me think you have some other motive for spreading this bullshit.
>>5743
>two posts disagreeing with me means ip hopping
IDs were a mistake, just like you.
>>5752
>I never liked Brain calling to brigade other sites.
Well Brain is the owner and you're, who again? So I think that the brigading fuck is more representative of the server than you.
Someone redpill me on Dungeon Fighter Online. I know it's
>korean
but I'm wondering just how korean and how much of my life I need to give up just to enjoy the game.
Replies: >>10444
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>>5752
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>>5752
>You do too.
Just because (You) and your worthless subhuman mongoloid assbuddies who succumb to social norms and peer pressure use the abhorrent services you listed, doesn't mean everyone does. Kill yourself, niggermonkey.
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>>5752
>You do too.
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I am looking with an MMO with crafting that goes into meaningful lategame trading. I want to kick back and be something like blacksmith/enchanter in wow whose gear is valuable. The problem is : wow profession gear is worthless compared to both higher level PvE and PvP gear and having wasted time before to just be left in the dust on multiple wow servers I know it is just not viable there.

<Is there an MMO with decent crafting ? Can you recommend some ? (Ones where you get to make lategame gear and people would buy it or request it)

>Tried tree of savior. It got terribly repetitive.
>Have yet to try Albion online, no idea if it is not a disaster.
Replies: >>6803 >>6807 >>6818
>>6792
FF XIV is big on gathering and crafting but neither is especially deep, though crafted gear is always in-demand since every time there's a content update the crafted gear gets a new tier to go with it, and people are also looking to buy gear for their off-jobs, since you can essentially play all "classes" on one character.
>>6792
have you tried a starwars galaxies private server?
I'm pretty sure you can craft and trade all day and never have to do anything else
>>5752
Using any sort of chatroom with permanent identities is faggotry. Some of them are FOSS faggotry, some of them come with an extra layer of chink botnet faggotry but it's all the same stuff.
Replies: >>6811
>>6808
Somewhat necessary in the case of MMO's, but declaring that everyone must use goyscord is ridiculous.
Replies: >>6858
>>6792
I played Rift for a while some years back. It didn't hold my interest, but it did have one noteworthy gimmick: crafted items would have the player's name attached to them. I haven't seen anything like that in another MMO.
Replies: >>6819 >>6835
>>6818
I think crafted WoW items say who they're crafted by on the item description somewhere.
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>>5752
Every time I come here, I see at least one absolutely abhorrent post. This is the worst so far.

>>5702
You need to ask for help to tell a tranny to fuck off? Do you need me to stay here and babysit, also?

>>6818
Mabinogi and Ragnarok Online both do this.
>>6811
Maybe to organise things but then you kill ingame chat entirely leaving anyone who won't join your chatroom as a second class player and never being able to develop a community larger than a third party chat client can comfortably support. If you're playing an MMO without the MM bit why bother?
Replies: >>6860 >>6873
>>6858
It's the fault of the game for lacking the appropriate tools players need to coordinate and communicate. WoW for example doesn't have VOIP, it doesn't have persistent offline messaging. There's a reason shit like goyscord is the defacto communications platform in literally every online game on the planet right now, and it's because it offers an unrivaled software suit that makes playing something like Vanilla WoW infinitely easier for everyone involved.

I think goyscord is cancer, and I wholly agree on principle that obligating people to install excessive software of any kind is problematic, but that kind of stance is incredibly rare. If I started a hypothetical WoW private server guild for anons here, there's no way I'm attempting to lead a fucking raid without mumble or an equivalent for VOIP. And considering the entire point of playing WoW is to make friends and hang out with people most are going to want some form of persistent chat communications. This is how everyone falls into the shitscord trap, it has literally every feature you could possibly imagine needing for fun shit-posting with the boys in a single piece of software available on virtually every daily driver operating system that basically every person you'll meet online is already going to have installed, and if they don't can just open it up in their browser instantly.
>VOIP
>media sharing
>persistent chats with the ability to have complex user role structures
>streaming to the people you're in VOIP with
>a wealth of user made chat bots

There are very few people willing to give up all of that on the principle of FOSS and security/anonymity. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely one of them, but this idea that people are just retarded for using these services is silly. They're good features bundled in a cancerous piece of spyware. Just like Windows has good games bundled is a cancerous piece of spyware.
Replies: >>6873 >>6875
>>6858
>>6860
The fatal flaw in this argument is that an MMO like WoW is not designed for emergent in-game chatting. It doesn't matter if you never talk to a single soul in the game as long as you're connected to your guild or whatever, the game is packed full of "features" like auction houses to remove any need for actual human interaction, that's the kind of MMO that WoW and many other modern MMOs are.
Replies: >>6875
>>6860
The difference in the past is that things like Mumble did one thing (VOIP). Now Discord functions as essentially a private imageboard/forum, an IRC and an integrated voice server all at once like you say. Once a community falls into it for one feature all the other parts of the community follow too and it's entirely within their service. What was once a vidya community that used Discord to chat with becomes a Discord community that merely happens to play that vidya and often then drops the game as anything but a pretence, Then recruitment becomes an issue because to the outside it's clearly just a circle-jerk about the drama and histories of the people not about anything of interest to people not already involved in that community and/or the server gets forked by anyone who wants a taste of power or due to any drama because it's so easy. Both of these issues were present with things in the past (IRC drama and imageboards is a recurring pattern, for example) but what's different is that Discord covers all the bases. Any time you move part of a community to a (non-anonymous) outside chat client they will form their own sub community that's focussed more around drama and socialisation than around the original topic, Discord is just extra damaging because of the centralisation and the spyware shit.
>but this idea that people are just retarded for using these services is silly
People are retarded for sacrificing their principles and independence for convenience in any sphere not just online. Everyone else doing it doesn't make it any less dumb. It's also foolish to get your entire community vendor-locked into a service that's still highly unprofitable and purely exists because of speculative investors.

It's possible sufficiently effective FOSS alternatives will pop up, Riot/Matrix for example, but again they just solve the spyware issue not the community consumption issue.

>>6873
That's a function of badly designed MMOs not inherent to the genre. Auction houses were a mistake.
Replies: >>6876 >>6887 >>6889
>>6875
>Now Discord functions as essentially a private imageboard/forum, an IRC and an integrated voice server all at once like you say.
Nothing about this is inherently bad though. Integrating features that facilitate better communication into a communications application is only natural, and it's what contributed to discord's monopolization on communications software. It's the same reason we give people shit for linking to jewtube videos rather than using the integrated file uploads on imageboards. It's much more convenient to interface with the files on the same page rather than needing to use an external site or program. If an imageboard was forced into text only mode and people could only share files by linking off site, people would just migrate or gravitate towards another imageboard that had a larger feature set that made the experience better.
>What was once a vidya community that used Discord to chat with becomes a Discord community that merely happens to play that vidya and often then drops the game as anything but a pretence
I also don't really see anything inherently wrong with this either. This is just socialization and people making friends. That is in a lot of instances the goal of online gaming for many people.
>People are retarded for sacrificing their principles and independence for convenience in any sphere not just online. Everyone else doing it doesn't make it any less dumb. It's also foolish to get your entire community vendor-locked into a service that's still highly unprofitable and purely exists because of speculative investors.
The problem I have is the idea that the feature set itself is inherently problematic. I don't think there's anything wrong with making a piece of software that encompasses a large set of features to very effectively meet the needs of people looking to communicate with each other.

I agree that sacrificing on privacy and security for convenience is stupid, and people using discord should be criticized on that specific point. But people should not be criticized for liking the features that a piece of software has and expecting alternatives to have feature parity, to an extent.
>but again they just solve the spyware issue not the community consumption issue.
The community issue you're bringing up is stupid. You're taking issue with fundamental human behavior, not software. You're saying we should purposefully make shitty communications software to knee cap uncomfortable social encounters, and that's retarded. If you don't like how the people you're interacting with act then stop interacting with them, forge your own destiny.
Replies: >>7001
>>6875
>Auction houses were a mistake
I'd like to write up a lengthy analysis of all the implications and effects that an auction house may have for an MMO. I think it has much bigger effects than we normally understand, even the people who are against them.

It changes the manner in which the game centers around items and loot and how people think about them, items are so central to basically all MMOs that the way you think about items changes how you think about a lot of things, which in turn changes how the content of the game is designed, which in turn changes what kind of audience it attracts, and it goes around in circles like that changing absolutely everything.

Of course it's not the sole feature that ruins things and other aspects of the game can compensate (or make things worse), but the auction house is the best example because almost everyone automatically thinks it's a good thing and anyone who wants to take it out must be crazy. There's 2 other features that have similar implications and apply to games more generally rather than just MMOs; minimaps and quest markers. I think the problem with quest markers is somewhat more commonly understood or at the very least believed that they can be overdone, but minimaps are similar to auction houses in that people think it's always a good thing to have in a game. But I think similarly, minimaps have huge effects where we don't realize, it basically changes the way your mind parses the world around you and almost completely eliminates certain states of thinking that you can get to.
Replies: >>6889
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>>6875
>>6887
>Auction houses were a mistake
No they were not. Have you seen the MMOs without them ? You get these retarded solutions with a player made marketplace where you have to set up a stand a wait like retard. God forbid you have to find the thing you want in there as hundreds of stacked models one on top of the other are offering something, people in all caps are spamming the chat selling or buying something.
 It's like visiting a digital version of an old styled marketplace like those in india and pretending this is a good idea over the auction house. This is without even mentioning the amount of bots and scripts people use to make a marketplace viable.
 The auction house is far superior to having a marketplace and I highly doubt you have a decent alternative to it.
Replies: >>6896 >>6900 >>7006
>>6889
See you don't even consider the possibility of if having any other effect, you think the only difference is that you'll be shouting in Falador all day and it's a question of convenience, completely separate from any possible cascading effects on everything else that said convenience has. In your mind you have to get to the next raid so you need to do a market value exchange with your items ASAP without having to make any inconvenient compromises or spend any effort doing non-raid things such as the actual trading, so of course you'll prefer an auction house every time. You're in a mechanized loot grinding raid carousel, which you may enjoy but personally I think it's a shitty kind of game.
Replies: >>6898 >>6907
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Also feel free to replace "raid" with "grinding", I think many MMOs now are practically designed around this obsessive grinding loop. MMOs have (almost) always had an aspect of grinding to them, but something has changed. Maybe part of what's changed is the way people play games, but it seems like there's a much bigger focus on grinding where there used to be something more. There's something radically different about grinding in BDO and fishing in <2007 Runescape, but I'm not sure I can put my finger on what it is, it's like the latter was done by real human beings and the former is done by NPCs.
Replies: >>6939 >>7006
>>6896
I think you're romanticizing a specific form of player interaction that really isn't all that interesting. If the AH is removed from WoW what you get is autistic chat spam, which would result in people getting addons to automate the process because it would be unbelievably fucking brain dead and boring. Even if we say addons don't exist it's still just a boring spam fest of copy/pasting shit into a chat window. I can't really think of a way you could do player trading and not have it be stupid. Every game I think of that has it it's just not a fun or interesting mechanic at all, auction house or not. It might add immersion to the world, but that only really works if there's an AH because I'm not going to go through the effort of selling the 1 copper bar I got off a mob since the xp/h and gold/h I lose from the effort of selling it simply wouldn't be worth the time investment.
Replies: >>6900 >>7006
>>6898
It's a little funny to me how you're replying with the exact same frame of mind as >>6889 did, to the point where I'm unsure if you're being ironic. You don't see beyond the "inconvenience of trading" part at all. The fact that you think it's inconvenient to trade already has a lot of effects on how you treat your items, how you approach many things in the game, and what you're generally thinking about. It also comes with the implication that the game design is based on grinding items and that's the reason you're playing to begin with.

>I'm not going to go through the effort of selling the 1 copper bar I got off a mob since the xp/h and gold/h I lose from the effort of selling it simply wouldn't be worth the time investment.
This is the part where I really thought you're being ironic, but it also highlights one of the effects that an auction house or lack thereof has. Since it's "not worth" selling that copper bar, you're not going to sell it. You'll hoard items in your bank, you won't sell it all and thus maybe won't be able to afford all the things you'd need for a perfect raid/whatever setup and have to make do with what you have, or maybe you'll ask someone else to help you out. You'll be tempted to sell stuff for a greatly lowered price because you can't be bothered to trade, you're weighing your options. You're actually thinking about things instead of pressing a button to convert it to market value so you can get to your next grind. In some sense you're more in the world, not just playing this isolated grinding minigame that might as well not be an MMO.

Now if the game designer(s) actually consciously realized this, they would add ways for players find each other to minimize the need for this marketplace screaming phenomenon. For example what if there were some kind of trading guilds or billboards where merchants can put a notice saying "NiggerDigger is trading X" and flip items or something, there'd always be someone offering X price for an item and selling it for X+Z price. Maybe it's bad value but they're taking advantage of people's laziness and at least you can trade the most common items effortlessly if you want to. This merchant job and the whole interaction would be impossible in a game with an auction house so of course nothing of the like exists. But perhaps the biggest obstacle to said job is not the auction house, but the fact that nobody realizes an MMO can be more than just a grinding game in the first place.
Replies: >>6904
>>6900
>The fact that you think it's inconvenient to trade already has a lot of effects on how you treat your items
Correct. I will treat what are low value items as even less valuable because they are no longer worth the time to sell. Now instead of my 1 copper having value to a level 60 leveling engineering it's more efficient for me to just vendor that item. The inconvenience of trade has now made the immersion of low level players having influence over end-game content disappear. And for the high level player it would be much more efficient for him to just go get that copper himself than it would be to haggle with a retarded low level new player.
>You'll hoard items in your bank
No I won't. I'll vendor them. This is what players do when speed leveling at the start of a Vanilla WoW server. Ore has no value to players because everyone is focused on leveling, and since AHing an item for minimal gain would cause the player to lose out on massive amount of xp/hour they'll opt to vendor virtually everything, even with the convenience of the AH. I don't have to speculate on these behaviors, I've lived and breathed them.

Players in MMORPG's will always take the path of least resistance because MMORPG's are games of attrition.  The path of least resistance in WoW without an AH is to vendor 99% of every drop in the game.
>You'll be tempted to sell stuff for a greatly lowered price because you can't be bothered to trade, you're weighing your options.
No I won't. I already know the worth of every item in Vanilla WoW. And I know that without the AH 99% of them aren't even worth farming in the first place to sell later. The efficiency of the AH is what gives value to the majority of the items in the game. Having to manually trade would just make it more efficient to manually farm everything you need as you need it. Not that I think that system is necessarily any worse. How you think these things would end up working out is not how they actually work out at all.

Maybe you could conceive of some system where player-player trading is fun and interesting. I can't. I haven't played a game where this has ever been a fun or interesting dynamic at all. I'm all ears for examples of games that do this correctly so I can get a better grasp on what you think is a properly executed trade system. Because it sure as hell wouldn't work well in Vanilla WoW.
>For example what if there were some kind of trading guilds or billboards where merchants can put a notice saying "NiggerDigger is trading X" and flip items or something, there'd always be someone offering X price for an item and selling it for X+Z price.
Nigger are you fucking serious? What the fuck is the difference between that and an AH? This wold just result in mass bot accounts fulfilling the role of an AH.
>But perhaps the biggest obstacle to said job is not the auction house, but the fact that nobody realizes an MMO can be more than just a grinding game in the first place.
I don't know why you keep saying this. It has nothing to do with anything. If you don't want an MMO to be about grinding then you design it around not having mobs worth grinding. Of course you can have an MMO without needing it to be excessively grindy.
Replies: >>6908 >>6919 >>6921
>>6896
You are not providing a solution. The marketplace version is just bad. The automated version is you opening a stall with goods but no actual bartering happens, it's as automated as the AH is, but the guy looking for stuff has to look around more.
 You speak of interaction, but that is not a gameplay action, it's waiting around and clicking some menus. This is the sort of mindset that finds spreadsheets fun. Most people are in a game for the GAMEPLAY, not the menu clicking and waiting for hours to sell something.
 Propose a meaningful alternative to the AH other than markets. You can't.
Replies: >>6920
>>6904
MMO players unsatisfied with the theme park MMOs of today have found a scapegoat in convenience. They remember back to the first time of playing the game and believe that their lack of understanding of the mechanics or the "mystique" of obliviousness was what made the experience fun for them. They think of a time where they themselves didn't use any of the convenient features and believe that their lack of knowledge was what made the MMO enjoyable.

An MMO is like dating a woman. The most exciting part is the novelty of the relationship but soon you the credit card bills start piling up and you find out the sex wasn't even that good so you start cheating to capture the original excitement of the relationship. But every new girl is measured using the memories of your first love which is clouded by the relative inexperience of it.

TL;DR : MMOs suck shit and people who get hooked to them start feeling dejected after months of playtime and to explain away those feelings they find a scapegoat.
Replies: >>6914 >>6919
Used to be in Runescape vendors had a limited stock of items that would refresh after some time, but players could sell to them instead and they would stock the items. This could creatr a situation where the vendor was overstocked and would sell below normal price. On the downside, vendors paid well below the value of items if you were to trade directly to other players, but i feel that using npc vendors as a middle man to redistribute items to players who want them, from players that are otherwise going to toss them is a good concept that should be explored.
>>6908
There's a kernel of truth in excessive convenience being bad, but of course retards will always fail to understand the complexities of it. For example many people take issue with streamlined group finders. This is a knee-jerk reaction to the absolutely retarded LFG random dungeon finder implemented in Wotlk that teleported you straight to the dungeon with completely random people. And yet when someone proposes a completely different approach to streamlining group finding in something like Vanilla WoW they write it off because "back in the day we autistically spammed chat and that's better than being teleported to the dungeon". Yes, it is better to have to walk to dungeons, but Blizzard removed the addon capability for Classic so people couldn't make addons that simply let people list groups and allowed people to sign up for those groups. The addon literally just scanned messages in chat and streamlined the group finding process so it would catalog those messages into the appropriate content categories and notify you if the kind of group you were interested in was posting chat messages.

This sort of interface is just objectively superior to having to manually scan hundreds of chat messages of inane garbage to find a group doing the content you're interested in, and yet retards still sperged out hard enough to get the addon broken by Blizzard. They don't understand the difference between immersive inconvenience like having to travel long distances or drink water, and the inconvenience of having to slog through fucking user interface menus and chat messages.
>>6904
>speed leveling at the start of a Vanilla WoW server
Hold it right there nigger, the game design of WoW is based on the endgame. The leveling up shit is not what it's about, you can't insert the concepts I'm talking about into WoW mid-game or possibly even WoW at all. You need an MMO where the low to mid level shit is part of the real game and not just a momentarily experience that's there for some legacy reasons. Or perhaps one without levels at all.

>lose out on massive amount of xp/hour
>without the AH 99% of them aren't even worth farming
>Maybe you could conceive of some system where player-player trading is fun and interesting. I can't.
I'm getting the feeling that we're mentally too far apart to get anything productive out of this discussion and I'd rather just not play the same game as you do. It's a little interesting in it's own right but I'm not sure I have the patience to figure out what the difference here is. You're treating the game like a job, you're playing like some chinese bug man, like a machine, you must be mathematically maximally efficient at raising your numbers and fuck anything else. Perhaps it's an effect of the game itself, but what does it tell about the person who plays such a game.

>I'll vendor them
On a topic that isn't tied to how shit WoW and it's derivatives are, this is also an option, but then you're probably getting the absolute worst deal possible aside tossing it to the ground. I still don't see that as an argument for auction houses since that's just increasing the amount of valid choices you have on how to deal with your items. I can't remember such details about WoW, but in Runescape the items you sold to a vendor could be bought by other players, usually for a very cheap price. That created a situation where you're tempted to check general stores in case they had something interesting in them, and popular stores had people regularly going in and out looking for cheap deals. I actually did find good deals (for a low level player anyway) from there on a couple occasions. To me that's simply another argument against auction houses, because that general store thing, no matter how insignificant it may seem, makes the game more interesting. I still have memories of the days when I did that. I do not however have any memories from pressing a button in the auction house menu to get the exact item I deliberately searched for.

>What the fuck is the difference between that and an AH
The difference is that it's basically no different than a post in a forum. It's just a note, you still have to contact the person who might not be available, he might try to haggle, there may be an inconvenient cost involved with using said notes, the system might not span across servers or even the map in a single server, there may not be a merchant for your item, and there will certainly not be a merchant for every obscure item you want to squeeze the pennies out of. It's just a half assed example of how you could help direct people's voices to alleviate the worst of the shouting problem, not a complete solution.

>I don't know why you keep saying this
Because when I hear arguments for auction houses, they clearly come from a place that doesn't see beyond the grinding game formula at all. All the MMOs are clearly designed FOR the grinding and the raids. The aspects that make MMOs interesting to me aren't related to grinding, it's the interactions you have with the people and the world, the part that's unique to MMOs and can't be replicated in any other type of game. If I wanted to grind I could do it in any generic "RPG", it would probably be better designed for it too.

>>6908
TL;DR : you grew up and can no longer play games in any other light than the efficiency of your numbers. My condolences.
Replies: >>6940 >>6952 >>6992
>>6907
I don't HAVE a solution because I don't have the privilege of designing an actual MMORPG and finding the solutions. I can only propose options and possibilities, but you need the ability to imagine how they could work in order to understand, and in order to imagine how they work you need to stop basing your opinion on how "efficient" it would be for your grinding shit, because nothing will beat an auction house if that's all you care about. Also you'd need an actual MMO to find out how they work in practice, but no MMO developer is trying anything new at all so we don't have a lot of examples to base anything on.

There's basically 3 ways of approaching this topic:
1. removing the auction house from shitty MMOs like WoW and replacing it with something else
2. fixing shit MMOs like WoW such that an alternative trading mechanic would work
3. an entirely different kind of MMO design that doesn't require an auction house

As far as I'm concerned you can just forget about #1, I never meant you should do that because of course it won't work. #2 is complicated because there's a lot of interlinked problems with such MMOs and you'd basically have to do something akin to a reboot and say bye bye to your current userbase in order for everything to make sense.
>so everyone will leave and nobody will play it!
There's different userbases and the current MMO design appeals to the lowest common denominator. If you want to make the next WoW then yeah forget about everything I've said so far and will say in the future. What I'm talking about is an MMO that's actually good, think of it as something akin to the difference between Fallout 4 and Fallout New Vegas. If you prefer 4 then don't bother replying to me. Anyway #3, while the most interesting, seems also the hardest to explain because people seem to have trouble seeing any other kind of MMO than WoW and the like. As an example; what if the whole MMO revolved around trading/delivering/smuggling/stealing items? We're throwing the very idea of grinding mobs out of the window before we even started the conversation. Maybe it's a bad example because it revolves around items, but my point was to hopefully illustrate how far into a different direction you can take various parts of the game design, throw away all your assumptions about what you think an "MMO" is.

To give a hopefully less extreme example of 3, if the game put more focus on guilds and helped them communicate and have a reach, you could eventually have things such as merchant's guild that help people find traders, perhaps for a price. Especially high level people who want to trade a lot of items might utilize their services. As for what I meant by "put more focus on guilds", Camelot Unchained is supposedly going to have a building system where you can build cities. What if you had the ability to build and/or own buildings, actually become a part of the in-game world in a meaningful way, it would certainly make it more appealing and fun to create some kind of a guild. And you need features that make guild-related interactions easy, for example a quick payment system might help guild-related businesses. What about discount coupons? You could do interesting things with that. In order for it to work, you need a game that's thoroughly designed to be fun in that way, not a game that's designed for loot and epic raids. That's not to say it can't have loot or raids or both, but there's a difference between having it and the game revolving around it.

That example still fits relatively well into the typical MMO mold, but it also puts heavy assumptions about how the game is designed overall. You can't just drop it into WoW and expect it to work out the same way.
Replies: >>6939
I'm still unsure if the examples make any sense because of >>6904
It's like I need to deconstruct the very concept of an MMORPG and build it back up bit by bit, throwing out any cancer that makes you think "muh XP/hour" and think of an item as "not being worth enough coins".
>>6920
In Black Dessert and Albion online you already have examples of alternative trading and crafting, but both make worthwhile trading involve high risk via trade routes and pvp,in Albion auction houses are local to the city you are in. I would still prefer that and lugging stuff around from city to city over a market snoozefest. 
>in order to imagine how they work you need to stop basing your opinion on how "efficient" it would be for your grinding shit
STOP RIGHT THERE. Those MMOs containing alternatives to the auction house are the most vile and mundane of asian grinders. Don't go accusing people of grind when it is exactly there that people active look for the most optimized grinding methods, specifically because their gameplay is less than they would like. Trading should be a thing, but not so much so that it would harm the gameplay.
>regional auction houses are an option
>no trading ala warframe is an option - people just make sites for that and you get an non-official auction house
>dropping your gear on death models also apply but never attract too many people

>>6897
>There's something radically different about grinding in BDO and fishing in <2007 Runescape, but I'm not sure I can put my finger on what it is, it's like the latter was done by real human beings and the former is done by NPCs.
One is made by westerners and intended to be more open, the other is made by gooks whose idea of eary-mid-lategame is grinding the same NPC over and over forever. The asian model just sucks, their addiction to genuine grind is unparalleled. WoW pales in comparison to the repetitiveness of what asian MMOs offer.
>>6919
>TL;DR : you grew up and can no longer play games in any other light than the efficiency of your numbers. My condolences.
More like I woke up to the fact that MMOs are all dogshit and the people who play them are no better than junkies. 
You'd think it'd be easy to just make a game and add multiplayer to it but nope, they have to become MMOs and absorb all the cancer that comes with the territory.
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Random thought:
I think MMOs should have something that gives a reason for it to be massive.
It may not be clear what I mean, but imagine this: You go out, there's a huge world, and people are fighting to conquer it.  There may be other things going around like small PvE missions but the main goal should be clear, and it shouldn't be "achieve max level and the best equipment" .

Directed thought:
A lot of things which are usually nice in other games, like player levels, are crutches for the MMO genre.

Can we agree with those two notes, at least?
Replies: >>8777
>>6919
>Hold it right there nigger, the game design of WoW is based on the endgame. The leveling up shit is not what it's about
I don't think I ever made it to endgame back when I played WoW. I was more interested in questing, exploring, crafting and gathering rather than raids and dungeons.
Replies: >>6987
>>6952
A majority of MMO players never make it to endgame which is an issue because the only content that gets any attention in expansions and updates is the end game. This is one of the reasons why WoTLK onwards the game started adding stuff like scaled gear from dailies and later on started handing instant 60s like candy.
>>6919
>the game design of WoW is based on the endgame.
Not really, especially in the context of Vanilla WoW. Plus nothing you said implied that you were specifically talking about some sort of "end-game", you were just talking about player interaction, trading, and the AH. A level 40 player has just as much reason to grind for items to sell on the AH as a level 60 player does, so I don't see the difference here at all. If you just don't want to use WoW as an example that's fine, I've already agreed that the game is fundamentally not compatible with your ideas but you've yet to provide a more appropriate example so I'm going with what I know.
>You're treating the game like a job, you're playing like some chinese bug man, like a machine, you must be mathematically maximally efficient at raising your numbers and fuck anything else.
I don't know how else you expect anyone to play a game like Vanilla WoW, or really any MMORPG. MMORPG's aren't mechanically interesting games. They're very often designed around archaic tab target hotkey based combat. They're inherently designed to be slow and boring. The entire purpose of virtually every game in the genre is to act as a skinnerbox. So yes, you're talking about a game that doesn't exist, I suppose. And I'm talking about real MMO's that exist, that people play, and that I have extensive experience on. That doesn't mean I like these systems. I'm just explaining to you that your ideas simply don't work in the context of these games. Wanting a radically different game is fine, but the idea that I or anyone else is just playing Vanilla WoW wrong for wanting to be spend less time monotonously pressing a single key for 180 hours straight is just fucking retarded. Any game where the goals are weeks, months ahead of you is going to result in people taking the path of least resistance. This isn't weird or "bugman" behavior, it's competent player behavior. Doubly so for Vanilla WoW since if you fall behind the pack at the start of a server you get to spend the next few weeks getting ass raped by the opposing faction that's 20 levels ahead of you.
>I can't remember such details about WoW, but in Runescape the items you sold to a vendor could be bought by other players, usually for a very cheap price. That created a situation where you're tempted to check general stores in case they had something interesting in them
That's interesting I guess but doesn't seem to solve the issues you take with player interaction at all. If anything that involves less player interaction than an AH does.
>and popular stores had people regularly going in and out looking for cheap deals.
The exact same behavior exists with an AH. You're basically just saying you think localized auction houses are cool.
>The aspects that make MMOs interesting to me aren't related to grinding, it's the interactions you have with the people and the world, the part that's unique to MMOs and can't be replicated in any other type of game.
Modern MMORPG's just aren't designed around role playing so clearly that's the problem here. Vanilla WoW is played almost like DayZ or Rust in the sense that it's an open sandbox with people fighting for resources mixed in with difficult boss battles to give those resources competitive value. You value immersion>gamification and I vice versa. This is a big problem in the MMO genre as you have these massive clashing player bases that each want different things from the game. None of them being wrong but game designers trying to appeal to each of them and failing all of them.

I understand what you want and why you find it interesting. Personally I'd just rather trading didn't exist in any meaningful way in the first place. Haggling isn't fun in real life and it sure as hell isn't fun in video games. I'd much rather spend my time exploring and killing bosses than micro managing loot and whether or not it's going to be worth having to interact with some fucking kike. But from your perspective that's probably emergent game play.
Replies: >>6993
>>6992
>Vanilla WoW is played almost like DayZ or Rust in the sense that it's an open sandbox with people fighting for resources mixed in with difficult boss battles to give those resources competitive value
This is peak revisionism.
WoW was the premier theme park MMO but now that its old, it has become this mythical ideal MMO when it was a piece of shit even back in its day.
Replies: >>6994
>>6993
>revisionism for something I played actively a couple years ago
I'm not romanticizing this, that's literally how the game is played. You need your mount at 40? Have fun contesting with retards camping all the best gph spouts in that level range. Vanilla WoW is a constant struggle for world resources. This isn't revisionism, this is a fact of how the game is played. I fucking hate Vanilla WoW and think it's a terrible designed game at its very core, I have no reason to revise anything about it.
Replies: >>6998
>>6994
>that's literally how the game is played
It isn't
The game holds your hand to from level 1 to 60. Nothing is a bigger waste of time than trying to play it "optimally". The only time you're competing for resources is when you start off the game in the same area as everyone with the same quest as everyone so you have to wait for quest mobs to respawn but thats more the game choking your progression to waste your time than any competition. It also stops being an issue the moment you can run dungeons. The experience gain is so lopsided that you'd get more experience just running dungeons and killing world mobs than wasting time accepting and turning in quests.
The "competition" comes from the game hiding marginal upgrades behind hours of grind and sub 1% drop rates. You'll have more than enough money to buy a mount at level 50 if you don't save it by level 40.
Replies: >>6999
>>6998
I don't even know how to respond to this, you're just wrong about literally every single thing you said. Quests are highly efficient xp/hour, dungeons are not efficient xp/hour, well at least not on private servers, but even on (((Classic))) grinding them was only particularly efficient when Blizzard royally fucked up and didn't have the raid XP debuff enabled. You're just making random shit up. Have you ever played a Vanilla WoW private server before, or even (((Classic)))?
>You'll have more than enough money to buy a mount at level 50 if you don't save it by level 40.
Level 40-50 is roughly a third of your total leveling experience. So yes, I'd fucking hope 30+ hours of leveling would result in you getting your mount by 50. Everyone class in the game should be able to afford their mount at level 40 if they leveled properly.
Replies: >>7000
>>6999
>Quests are highly efficient xp/hour
Absolutely not. This makes me wonder if you actually played the game instead of just following exclamation marks mindlessly. 
>I'd fucking hope 30+ hours of leveling would result in you getting your mount by 50
30 hours to get from 40 to 50?
This is your proper levelling?
Replies: >>7002
>>6876
>Nothing about this is inherently bad though
Their being private is inherently worse than being publicly available like any decent imageboard or forum. Every private community becomes narrower and more of an echochamber'/bubble over time and the way Discord specifically evolves is not just as a private community but as one that's inherently impenetrable to new users who don't want to track months or even years of interpersonal drama.
>It's the same reason we give people shit for linking to jewtube videos rather than using the integrated file uploads on imageboards. It's much more convenient to interface with the files on the same page rather than needing to use an external site or program.
There are other reasons to oppose youtube links than mere convenience. You're also retarded since you can just embed external videos on most imageboards and there's still valid complaints to make there.
>I also don't really see anything inherently wrong with this either. This is just socialization and people making friends. That is in a lot of instances the goal of online gaming for many people.
The subject of the community swapping from actually doing something productive to interpersonal drama like a bunch of teenage girls is a problem both because it damages the original purpose of the community and because it acts as a huge barrier to any new user who will glance at it and see that despite what it claims to be the community is just a bunch of little dramafaggots concerned with their own relationships. That was shit back in the days of organised clans and it's shit now.
>The problem I have is the idea that the feature set itself is inherently problematic. I don't think there's anything wrong with making a piece of software that encompasses a large set of features to very effectively meet the needs of people looking to communicate with each other.
You're on the webring and you don't see a problem with excessive centralisation? Besides which doing one thing and one thing well is a good idea with software in general.

>The community issue you're bringing up is stupid. You're taking issue with fundamental human behavior, not software. You're saying we should purposefully make shitty communications software to knee cap uncomfortable social encounters, and that's retarded. If you don't like how the people you're interacting with act then stop interacting with them, forge your own destiny.
Fundamental human behaviour does not dictate shutting yourself off into a little bubble away from the rest of society. If anything that'd previously been indicative of failing societies.
Replies: >>7005
>>7000
>Quests are highly efficient xp/hour
<Absolutely not. This makes me wonder if you actually played the game instead of just following exclamation marks mindlessly. 
I don't know what to tell you my man. You're either pretending to be retarded or you have no clue how to level in Vanilla WoW. I could go upload the leveling routes I've used in the past if you want, but it seems like you're just baiting at this point.
Replies: >>7004
>>7002
>I could go upload the leveling routes I've used in the past if you want
So yeah you were just mindlessly following exclamation marks. Could've just said that. Did you also have addons which tell you how to play "optimally"?
>>7001
>Their being private is inherently worse than being publicly available like any decent imageboard or forum.
The entire point is that they're private communications between friends. Why would I want my private communications made public to people?
>There are other reasons to oppose youtube links than mere convenience.
Of course, that doesn't refute the reason I listed though. You've completely ignored the actual point I was making and appear to be incapable of understanding the imageboard analogy I was making about features.
>You're on the webring and you don't see a problem with excessive centralisation? Besides which doing one thing and one thing well is a good idea with software in general.
Since you decided to completely ignore my earlier rebuttal to this I'll repeat it. What you consider "centralization" is no different than if I were to consider being able to upload files to my posts "centralization". Centralizing core features into a single website, or piece of software, is not a bad thing. And more importantly is not comparable to the centralization of authority that the webring exists to avoid.

What you're advocating for is minimalism bloat. Hyper autistic software minimalism that results in bloat by needlessly stripping away basic features and segregating them. Why don't we mandate that all files be hosted off site? Instead of an imageboard this should be a text board. The website should only faciliate a single purpose, submitting text posts. Only a retard would need files attached to his post to convey a message or share content. Just link it off-site.
>Fundamental human behaviour does not dictate shutting yourself off into a little bubble away from the rest of society.
You're joking right?
<<7004
So writing a leveling route based on my experience leveling from 1-60 5 times constitutes as "mindlessly following exclamation marks"? This is terrible bait. I'm done responding to you. Either post something of substance or fuck off retard.
Replies: >>7013
>>6889
>No they were not. Have you seen the MMOs without them ? 
I lived through their introduction. Just another part of the damage the WoWification of the genre caused.
>It's like visiting a digital version of an old styled marketplace like those in india and pretending this is a good idea over the auction house.
In decently made MMOs with somewhat variable markets that's part of the fun.
>The auction house is far superior to having a marketplace and I highly doubt you have a decent alternative to it.
For example Guild Wars 1 style marketplaces. That relies on having a decently designed MMO where cosmetics and collectibles without any set value can sell for more or less than the current market price based on how long you're willing to work at it which means the MMO has to be designed to cap out the gameplay-effecting gear very quickly but that should happen anyway. If you never played it you could easily sell more generic goods to NPC merchants and certain crafting and other rarer goods to NPC traders whose prices fluctuated somewhat with supply and demand and who could 'run out' if people stopped selling to them enough. No NPC tended to care about high end cosmetics/collectibles, certain equipment parts or the rare materials leading to them which were the end game for most people as you hit the gear and level cap very quickly. 

This meant you tended to only sell high end items in the marketplace and if you were an ADHD nigger you could just offload genetic expensive goods (but not cosmetic drops or certain other things) to the NPC traders for a lower profit vs taking the time to deal in the marketplace. What is key is offloading to the trader still changed the amounts he'd buy and sell for and also the the NPC traders were turbojews who bought very low and sold very high meaning they really just set a window in which anyone who wanted to profit could work.

For goods NPCs did not care about you also had subtleties to do with the trading cap (100 plat) requiring the use of one of a pool of alternative items of limited supply (usually of use to create cosmetic armour themselves) as a second currency. The specific value of these alternative currencies would fluctuate constantly too, derived as they were from player behaviour so when exactly you purchased them (functionally currency exchange rates) could effect things also as could the fact that people expected them to have a set value that could differ up or down from the value you'd pay for the alternative currencies letting you jew people with hoarding or by taking advantage of their preconception of an alternative currency's value.

Now obviously this system was not flawless and particularly it's fallen apart as player numbers have plummeted or as some elements of the game got broken after 10+ years of people messing with it but there's plenty you could build on the same basis.

>>6898
WoWniggers with their loot treadmill and grinding goods of essentially set value need not apply. Stop thinking every MMO has to be WoW.
>since the xp/h and gold/h I lose from the effort of selling it simply wouldn't be worth the time investment.
Both pretty telling about the game you're playing in terms of xp and gold merely being barriers to further fun and because you can assign set values to items like that. Marketplaces work in MMOs where the main goods traded do not have developer-set values but a value window based on what the community wants i.e. a real marketplace.
>>6897
>Also feel free to replace "raid" with "grinding", I think many MMOs now are practically designed around this obsessive grinding loop. MMOs have (almost) always had an aspect of grinding to them, but something has changed. Maybe part of what's changed is the way people play games, but it seems like there's a much bigger focus on grinding where there used to be something more.
Yes modern MMOs are about the skinnerbox loop with an attached chat client or nowadays an external chat client and not about the gameplay. Just little retards getting their dopamine hit from numbers going up or new gear that's functionally just the same as getting more XP but without the guaranteed output for time input.

I'll accept that auction houses make sense in badly designed skinnerbox MMOs like WoW where essentially the vast majority of goods can have defined prices and effects at any given moment but that's what you get for playing shit games. Marketplaces work better in MMOs where goods do not have defined costs and more relevantly defined value.
Replies: >>7011 >>7016
>>7006
>WoWniggers with their loot treadmill and grinding goods of essentially set value need not apply. Stop thinking every MMO has to be WoW.
I have on multiple occasions asked for someone to give me a better more fitting example to work within. No one has, because as it turns out basically fucking every MMO is WoW. I'm more than willing to shift the conversation in favor of whatever idea other people are proposing because I don't even necessarily disagree with the fact AH's are lame.
>Marketplaces work in MMOs where the main goods traded do not have developer-set values but a value window based on what the community wants i.e. a real marketplace.
This is literally how the AH in WoW works. I don't know what the fuck you're on about. The AH is entirely driven by the players. If you have enough capital you can even completely rape certain markets.
>I'll accept that auction houses make sense in badly designed skinnerbox MMOs like WoW where essentially the vast majority of goods can have defined prices and effects at any given moment but that's what you get for playing shit games. Marketplaces work better in MMOs where goods do not have defined costs and more relevantly defined value.
Please for the love of god just name this MMO for me.
Replies: >>7017
>>7005
>The entire point is that they're private communications between friends. Why would I want my private communications made public to people?
Except they aren't if they were originally a community for a specific purpose like playing a game. Particularly for games or other areas with small populations when the official or de facto official community devolves into a private circle of friends you're fucked if you do not/cannot join that private circle.
>Of course, that doesn't refute the reason I listed though. You've completely ignored the actual point I was making and appear to be incapable of understanding the imageboard analogy I was making about features.
The funny thing about imageboards and textboards before them though is that people do give up certain features for the social benefits gained. There are obvious benefits to having permanent accounts, for example, but the rational choice is made to give up that feature to avoid the community issues permanent identities cause. A larger featureset is not inherently better and if you don't believe that what the fuck are you doing on an imageboard in the first place?
>Of course, that doesn't refute the reason I listed though. You've completely ignored the actual point I was making and appear to be incapable of understanding the imageboard analogy I was making about features.
>Since you decided to completely ignore my earlier rebuttal to this I'll repeat it. What you consider "centralization" is no different than if I were to consider being able to upload files to my posts "centralization". Centralizing core features into a single website, or piece of software, is not a bad thing. And more importantly is not comparable to the centralization of authority that the webring exists to avoid.
Centralisation is inherently bad as it results in a singular point of failure and control. That applies not just to centralised authority who can say 'I ban this' but also to centralisation of soft power where participation in that centralised community is functionally required even if on paper you don't have to. Nobody legally requires you to use social media but you are soft-excluded from large parts of society by choosing not to, that's centralisation in the functional sense if not in the legal sense.

>What you're advocating for is minimalism bloat. Hyper autistic software minimalism that results in bloat by needlessly stripping away basic features and segregating them. Why don't we mandate that all files be hosted off site? Instead of an imageboard this should be a text board. The website should only faciliate a single purpose, submitting text posts. Only a retard would need files attached to his post to convey a message or share content. Just link it off-site.
The funny thing about that is some people did stick to using textboards after the creation of imageboards for reasons like that. Halfchan only finally kill its textboards in 2014 a sign of moot's impending faggotry. But there's a huge difference between the luddite strawman you're proposing and ignoring the negative social effects blindly adopting new technology can cause just because they bring a little bit of convenience. Smartphones make life more convenient but that doesn't mean the social and privacy problems they come with are not relevant.

>You're joking right?
Only a child feels the need to shut themselves off from opposing views into a little social bubble and only a woman would think a community devolving into social interaction alone is desirable when it was originally about an actual subject or activity. Neither of these are fundamental parts of humanity.
Replies: >>7021
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>>7006
I gave the example above but I will give it again:
>You get a game like Warframe that simply lacks a normal marketplace and people use trading chat to organize, then meet up and trade.
>players realize this is super slow and annoying
>it takes tons of time and is not fun
>players make website auction houses, where they do their trading and it's more efficient than the ingame chats since you can be offline and people will leave messages to organize

<What stops players from doing that in your idea scenario without an ingame AH ? 
And most of all why are you pretending that waiting for trades is fun. This is an outright lie and even if I like your ideas I cannot stand with you when you say stuff like that, which are genuinely wrong to the pro player, the middle player and to the casual player.
Replies: >>7018 >>7019
>>7011
>I have on multiple occasions asked for someone to give me a better more fitting example to work within. No one has, because as it turns out basically fucking every MMO is WoW. I'm more than willing to shift the conversation in favor of whatever idea other people are proposing because I don't even necessarily disagree with the fact AH's are lame.
I literally named and described one alternative right there in that post. Granted a dead/dying alternative and not a perfect one but that's the state of the genre. What is required is a game where the high end goods have no functional purpose other than bragging rights, no guaranteed method of acquisition that you can assign defined cost and value to and where you hit a functional gear and level cap so early on. Once you can break it down into objective measurements of cost and value you'll somewhat inevitably trend towards an auction house.

>This is literally how the AH in WoW works. I don't know what the fuck you're on about. The AH is entirely driven by the players. If you have enough capital you can even completely rape certain markets.
The developers still functionally set the value of the good based on what you can do with it or by defining how much work it takes to get. They may not reach into the game and say 'this item is worth x' but they can say 'the cost of acquiring this value is y and the benefit of its use is z' which is the same outcome really. Obviously there's still the capability to play within there because the missing element they don't directly control is the time it will take to acquire and so you can hoard and so on. I'm talking mostly about goods that are essentially entirely divorced from any objective measurement of value (GW1's cosmetics).
>>7016
>You get a game like Warframe that simply lacks a normal marketplace and people use trading chat to organize, then meet up and trade.
>players realize this is super slow and annoying
>it takes tons of time and is not fun
Going with GW1 and a few other older MMOs as an example again there were just universally agreed upon trading areas you'd fuck off to permanently full of people buying and selling. No real need to meet up since you could both just watch the chat. Now being fair high volume traders would sometimes use external programs to more efficiently filter the chatspam but that's still just piping the in-game chat out not running another game on the side.
>players make website auction houses, where they do their trading and it's more efficient than the ingame chats since you can be offline and people will leave messages to organize
The benefit of that slides off when you have a very active real time marketplace. You could still do it but it's slower to get your goods and you might get a worse deal since people will just fulfil your order when it's most beneficial to them as the prices fluctuate during the day.

>And most of all why are you pretending that waiting for trades is fun. This is an outright lie and even if I like your ideas I cannot stand with you when you say stuff like that, which are genuinely wrong to the pro player, the middle player and to the casual player.
In a functioning marketplace those who want to sell quickly set a lower price quickly attracting customers and those who want to make the maximum profit set a higher price. Flip this for people who want to buy now vs those who are willing to wait for a better deal. If you don't want to stand around all day then take the financial hit and then go back to whatever else you want to do instead. However this cannot work where you can assign an objective baseline value to a good since while supply and demand can tweak the edges there's still a floor and a ceiling price past which it cannot vary. Lack of flexibility in pricing means excessive supply or excessive demand break the system and result in standing around instead.


And again I'll admit that systems from the past were not perfect hence GW1 needing the pressure valve of NPC traders for some goods but that's a case of needing to improve them not just defaulting to an auction house so you can return to grinding at today's optimal gold/xp/loot treadmill pseudo-xp per hour.
Replies: >>7019
>>7018
>>7016
Also I'll admit to not being familiar with Warframe specifically so I don't know if it's a conventional MMO with towns and so on or if you literally have to specifically meet each person you want to trade with in a private instance or something. If so then yes an auction house is most suitable for that design but that's a game design problem.
>>7013
>Except they aren't if they were originally a community for a specific purpose like playing a game. Particularly for games or other areas with small populations when the official or de facto official community devolves into a private circle of friends you're fucked if you do not/cannot join that private circle.
Even if a community is originally meant to be pseudo-public, ie. a goyscord for a WoW guild on an imageboard, the logical conclusions of a productive WoW guild/community is that you make friends and form cliques. Obviously this can be problematic in a number of ways depending on the context, but there's nothing inherently bad about forming groups of friends.

In a game like Vanilla WoW it becomes significantly more problematic than it would in other circumstances, which is why Vanilla WoW is fucking garbage. In Vanilla WoW you have 40 man raids. You can not realistically expect to treat everyone the same in a 40 man raid environment. This is why the game is notorious for clique faggotry and loot council bullshit. Vanilla WoW while paraded around by fucking retards as this epic social experience is ironically one of the least social versions of the game.

Now on the contrary if we move to a later expansion like Cata where 10 man raiding was the pinnacle of the game it becomes a much different story. It's much easier to have new people integrate into that smaller tight knit guild culture and have a good time. This is the ideal form clique faggotry should take.
>A larger featureset is not inherently better and if you don't believe that what the fuck are you doing on an imageboard in the first place?
I didn't say more features just for the sake of more features was inherently better. Good features that make sense are good features. Having persistent chat messages and quality VOIP in a single application does not to me sound like some massive bloated centralization of completely unrelated features that no one would ever need. Your characterization of the pretty fucking basic communications features that goyscord has is ridiculous.
>Centralisation is inherently bad as it results in a singular point of failure and control.
It's not "inherently" bad. It's a give and take. If you thought any form of centralization at all was objectively bad then you would be using zeronet instead of posting here. With centralization comes convenience, and with convenience comes security and privacy concerns. It's about balancing these things in a way that you think is appropriate.
>But there's a huge difference between the luddite strawman you're proposing and ignoring the negative social effects blindly adopting new technology can cause just because they bring a little bit of convenience.
I'm not ignoring them I'm just framing them in a realistic context so that a productive fucking conversation can be had with real examples, which you've decided to label a "strawman".
>Only a child feels the need to shut themselves off from opposing views into a little social bubble and only a woman would think a community devolving into social interaction alone is desirable when it was originally about an actual subject or activity. Neither of these are fundamental parts of humanity.
It is human nature to want to form tight knit communities and project their values onto those communities. The idea that you think private groups of friends is antithetical to the human experiences means that you're somehow more autistic than I am.
>I literally named and described one alternative right there in that post.
I didn't read the first half as it wasn't addressed to me. But it seems that you like the approach of just making trading irrelevant to the gameplay if I'm interpreting how GW1 works properly. I don't disagree with making trading irrelevant outside of cosmetics. The less obligation I feel towards trading to perform well, the better.
>The developers still functionally set the value of the good based on what you can do with it or by defining how much work it takes to get.
By this logic the developers set the price of cosmetics with their drop rate as well. I don't think using this logic you'll ever really come to another conclusions besides developers must dictate the price of items in some capacity. I guess cosmetics might throw a wrench into that by being somewhat subjectively valued, maybe. Bit of a stretch though.

I'm not familiar with any of GW1's systems personally. I ""own"" the game but haven't gotten around to playing it much.
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>>7021
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2019/02/leftism-not-just-wrong-evil-mark-tapson/
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I was thinking of getting into PSO2. Is it better to still play the JP version with the fan translation, or has the NA version been fixed?

>>5286
It was the first game I had bought off a gray market website since Bad Company 2 and was having fun before they pandered to niggers. I just wanted to play video games.
Replies: >>8467 >>8473
>I was thinking of getting into PSO2. Is it better to still play the JP version with the fan translation, or has the NA version been fixed?
Just play JP, you'll get less retarded people, everything you might need is much cheaper on the player market because it's been around for much longer, it's still way ahead on content, and who knows if NA will even get half of the cosmetic crossovers JP had.
Replies: >>8467 >>8473
>>8446
>>8466
meant to reply to that
>>8446
I guess if you got the game and subscription code, I hope without giving Squeenix a cent, it's fine. As for PSO2, the lolcalized version is censored, on top of what >>8466 mentioned. Just play PSOBB.
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>Blizzard's official servers don't even have checks in place to prevent people teleport hacking around the map
>something private servers have had server side anti-cheat against for years
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Is there any MMO worth playing nowadays? with a brawler class?
Think DMCV Dante's gauntlets kinda combat.
Replies: >>9247
>>6951
You are exceedingly correct. The modern MMO formula has been a disaster for the entire genre, and seemingly unrecoverable at that.

I think release-firefall and the planned Em8er had one of the right concepts for the approach to MMOs: A GIGANTIC co-op wargame against some ruthless A.I. director as you battle and leverage for better gear and territory for the expanding player-empire. Player conquest against other players is good, so long as it's not guild-specific and any player can contribute to a nation. The only way for conquest to be fun is when it's actually fueled by human dynamics.

The other option for MMOs in the RPG theme should really just be players conquering self-randomizing territory from some kind of miasma or plot-device barrier where people go in, kill monsters, fortify, and defend their lands while expanding as people come in. MMOs are all about community (or are supposed to be, anyway) so player interdependence is both necessary and easily utilized in such cases, maybe crafters are both builders for city walls and defences, while also facilitating local guard companies and transportation routes, and typical adventuring parties go out to secure land, rare resources, or deliver resources to other nations for a profit. It's incredible that this hasn't been done before, despite the technology being around since minecraft.
Replies: >>8800 >>8805 >>9234
>>8777
>It's incredible that this hasn't been done before
It's too different from WoW. Developers are completely stuck viewing MMOs through the WoW lense and will approach the game design by making tweaks to what WoW is. Nobody will ever realize all the potential in the genre, and that includes the players.
>>8777
Ashes of creation might be what you're looking for
Replies: >>8808 >>8950
>>8805
I've been paying attention to it, but I'm not so sure. If it ever comes out I'll check it out.
Replies: >>8810
>>8808
It's a step in the right direction at the very least and even f the game fails it'll have thrown the idea out there.
>>8805
It's very similar to Camelot Unchained in the sense that it's been in development for fucking ever and never gets any closer to finished.
>>8777
>I think release-firefall and the planned Em8er had one of the right concepts for the approach to MMOs: A GIGANTIC co-op wargame against some ruthless A.I. director as you battle and leverage for better gear and territory for the expanding player-empire.
so, tabula rasa? which crashed and burned over 10 years ago?

the people mostly into grinding AI moved over to item grinders which gives most of them the same feeling of seeing numbers go up while they can just jump in whenever they want, and is cheaper for devs to make.

>The modern MMO formula has been a disaster for the entire genre, and seemingly unrecoverable at that.
not a problem of the formula, just the industry going mainstream and more expensive, which makes companies more risk averse, which makes investing into one of the most expensive genres out there (MMOs) not very feasible.
when you add that most western devs suck ass, especially when it comes to MMOs, it's no surprise the genre isn't really moving forward.
>>8738
Vindictus, but the combat is not nearly as fun, it's 100% instanced and it gets terribly repetitive after a while.
 On the plus side of the classes are truly skill based and even drinking a potion has a timing to it that determines how much it heals.
Replies: >>9269
>>9247
>it's 100% instanced
That's my problem, played it a bit years ago, i want something open world or with maps.
Black Desert seemed to be what i was looking for but i've heard it's as p2w as it gets.
Anyone know of any good private S4League servers?
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>>874 (OP) 
The MMO genre is toast as it stands. WoWs success has tainted the whole thing to such a point that even calling something an MMO automatically invites comparisons with WoW, which is by definition a lost battle since how can your game be more WoW than WoW itself ? 
The only possible solution I can see is to make a new MMO but market it as something entirely different. Otherwise we would need to wait for WoW to truly die and then wait 10+ years for people to stop using it as a universal measuring stick. 

One more possibility could be to start a game as a singleplayer title with online features but evolve it over time into an MMO. Problem is that for that to work the game would have to be both playable in single and multiplayer a.k.a no tab targeting or some other shit shortcut style game and would have to be designed with this in mind from the start. 
So maybe something akin to Dark Souls 1 online functionality that would eventually be expanded to work with a world structured like Skyrim. But again that is a lot of work, money and most important creative integrity. 
The last bit, creative integrity is probably more important than anything else since that kind of project would require and ironclad vision from start to finish, not switching the director every odd year cus investor-chan had a bad dream or some other BS reason. 

But really how you would find the funding for something like that is beyond me, so the genre will probably just die.
Replies: >>9425
>>9422
>make a single player game and then tack on massive multiplayer on it
That's every MMO, and that's the opposite of how to make a good one.

>make a good MMO, then call it something different
Start with just making a good MMO. It won't happen though so it doesn't matter what marketing strategy you device.

When someone sets out to make an MMO, they're actually setting out to make a WoW spinoff, so the idea that someone will make a non-MMO game and it just becomes a good MMO sounds more likely than someone making a good MMO deliberately.
Replies: >>9436
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>>9425
How can you miss the point so hard? 

I am not saying that to make a good MMO you need to start with a singleplayer game and then turn it into an MMO later. I am saying that starting with a solid singleplayer foundation(and maybe some coop functionality) that would later be morfed into an MMO would be an efficient way to avoid the WoW comparisons, thus letting the game succeed on its own terms instead of WoWs terms.

>That's every MMO
I dunno what MMOs you were playing but that does not describe any MMO that I know of. Just because you can level solo or do some chunk of the content of your own does not mean a game is playable from start to finish as singleplayer. 

>When someone sets out to make an MMO, they're actually setting out to make a WoW spinoff
That was exactly my point no need to repeat it.
Replies: >>9558
I've been thinking for a while of a WW2 themed MMO, you choose a faction and start as a recrit, you go through training and choose a specialization navy, army, airforce... then you go and play the game based on that, the gameplay being something like War Thunder, the meta game would progress with time though, based on how well each team did in a match (matches lasting as long as they need to get a clear victor) or in a historical basis, having a Stalingrad map for the months that the battle took, a "season" could last the 6 years of the war or less in a mode that crunches the time, the idea is to simulate the war though. Leveling would be going trough the ranks, Guilds and such could be armies/divisions for example, mobs could be NPCs like in Titalfall.

The concept could of course be applied to other concepts, but i think WW2 makes the most interesting setting, or maybe a cold war gone hot.
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>>9444
>World War 2 again
>>9444
That's a prettied-up version of WWII Online.
Replies: >>9563
I don't have much to say about the current state of MMOs, but I just wanted to mention Raph Koster's blog.  He's apparently worked on MMOs dating back to Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies, so there's a long volume of work there if you have the time to read it.

https://archive.vn/hfhMw
https://www.raphkoster.com/2006/06/03/uos-resource-system/
https://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/15/star-wars-galaxies-tefs/
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>>9444
So this GIF as a game?
Replies: >>9563
>>9436
>solid singleplayer foundation
My point was that this automatically implies a bad MMO, a good MMO is not foundated on singleplayer concepts or necessarily even normal multiplayer concepts. Even if it succeeds commercially just like every copypasted shit TPS with nice graphics, what's the point since it won't be a good MMO?
>>9540
How come i didn't know of that?
>>9549
Or an alt history version, if your team does well enough.
Replies: >>9613
>>9563
I have no idea, anon. The game's been around for something like fifteen years. My guess is the devs have no idea how to advertise.
>>874 (OP) 
EVE Online is still going strong, although since CCP sold its soul to Pearl Abyss they are trying its hardest to piss of the player base and to slowly kill it off.
Replies: >>13550 >>13600
>>6717
>Someone redpill me on Dungeon Fighter Online.
Instanced MMO Beat'em up with a somewhat varied number of classes with flashy skills. It has the progression of piss easy leveling until you reach level cap (specially when there are events for that purpose), then it's streamlined to get old raid ready gear, and after that it's a daily RNG struggle for shines to get into the newest, freshest raid coming in a few weeks.
Dailies and weeklies are also relatively fast for a gook mmo for each character, but it's easy to fall into the trap on trying to gear up multiple alts (although it's encouraged to get different classes level capped because of explorer club rewards). There are some other weekly dungeons and raids from the previous level cap (now trivial thanks to lv100's gigantic powercreeping with legs rivaling its endgame gear) to aid with the gearing. 
P2W wise, it's not horrible yet (at least compared to the atrocity that is CDnF) but packages are becoming more and more jewish thanks to the chink whales too poor to compete in the chynese version migrating here. There are premium contracts, but the only one that truly matters is the one that lets you pick skills 5 level higher than you are, but events often provide them (except Neogoy and VIP, which are simply minor grind cutters so they still don't matter so much).
>TL;DR, if you enjoy beat'em ups and don't mind some repetitive daily grind, you might just like the game.
Replies: >>14382
I noticed Runescape was recently added to (((Steam))), the modern one. I've never played any version of Runescape before, is it worth a look or should it just be completely written off?
Replies: >>13570 >>13615
Are there any mmos with good combat?
Replies: >>13551
>>9444
I was thinking something like that would be interesting, where each player plays for whatever country they’re from. It’d be an MMOFPS fir players and a RTS for AI commanders who would choose which battles to fight and whether to promote well-performing players into more specialized squads.
>>10434
EVE was always pretty neato but I could only play it for short bursts at a time. It's really impossible to play that game and do anything else with your life as far as free time is concerned. Sucks to hear that its circling the shitter now,
Replies: >>13600
>>13534
PSO2 is probably the only "mmo" with a fun combat system.
>>13530
>only consider trying after it's added to steam
You'll love it.
>>10434
>>13550
Send me a mail if you want to play together. IGN: Ruffalo
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Puzzle Pirates, one of the few MMOs that are not WoW clones, is still alive, somehow.
Replies: >>13639
>>13530
https://vidyascape.org/

Try this version first, is my suggestion. I went three weeks before i got bored of it.
>>13608
Aren't they being kept on life support by the same company as Spiral Knights?
Replies: >>13910
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>>13639
Yes, it's Grey Havens.
Spiral Knights has an average of 200 players online on Steam, not counting the standalone client, most likely due to Corona-chan, since the last time i played it was a ghost town.
Replies: >>13916 >>13994
>>13910
Have they made it to the core yet?
>>13916
Games don't update under Grey Havens, its just life support.
>>13916
Either they didn't, or they did and it was really disappointing. It's been a long time; the whole "no more energy cost for elevators but now you need expensive items to level up your weapons" thing turned me off the game completely. Not to mention the big crystals being downgraded from a colony resource you were mining alongside everyone else to mere pet food.
Replies: >>14023
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>>13910
Replies: >>14209
>>13916
Yes, and we got a mission exploring inside of it... And that's it.
>>13989
I still don't understand the problem with removing the facebook energy system, what did it do that was so important?
Replies: >>14026
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>>14023
It managed to make progression even more of a pain and money grubbing.
Replies: >>14028
>>14026
If you mean the measures they took after removing the energy system were bad, then sure, I could see that. But the energy system in itself seemed awful.
Replies: >>14078
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Would anyone recommend Final Fantasy 14? I'm really against playing it due to the subscription shit.
>>14039
You'll like it if you are a retarded furfag. Otherwise, it's shit.
Replies: >>14055
>>14039
May as well try the free trial to see if you like it. Subscription MMOs are always higher quality than the F2P gacha ones from my experience.
Replies: >>14050
>>14039
Fuck no we wouldn't. Yes, I'm saying the "we" word, I'm that confident in saying such.
>>14048
Not helping.
Replies: >>14055
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>>14042
>You'll like it if you are a retarded furfag.
Well I'm not that, so I guess I wouldn't like it at all. I assume that it's WOW 2.0 but made by nips?
>>14050
>Fuck no we wouldn't. 
It's that bad?
Replies: >>14056 >>14104
>>14055
I don't play the game, a fact that replies to this post will certainly doubt, but I hope you appreciate that the replies you're getting are essentially "ew no." What even makes you consider playing it? Did you like FFXI?
Replies: >>14057
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>>14056
>What even makes you consider playing it?
I've been interested in playing some MMOs ever since Black Desert and WOW have gone to complete shit. I just want something where I can do some quests, socialize, PVP and trade. But I can't find any games that isn't shit or players who aren't autistic faggots. 
> Did you like FFXI?
I have never played it, but I've seen some who hype it up and talk about how great and fun it is ever since they've left WOW.
>>14028
It was better than having to put up with the fire crystal system. Not being able to play whenever you felt like it was dumb, but progression being tied to cash shop items was nightmarish.
>>14055
>it's WOW 2.0 but made by nips?
As far as I know, it's much, much worse. Here's a few things I can think of off the top of my head:
1. Forced singleplayer; You might have heard about this one as it's basically a meme at this point. You have plenty of solo quests which lock skills and main story progression. Mind you, the main story quest line locks just about everything.

2. Extremely linear progression; Everything is linear. There are no character builds. No exploration. No gear sidegrades, nothing.

3. Pure gear treadmil; Each class can only equip 1 weapon type and each class has a primary attribute. The basically means you are going to look for the gear with the higher numbers and that's it. There is no nuance to equipment what so ever. The only choice you have when it comes to gear is cosmetic.

4. Completely rotation based; 
Here's a blackmage guide for ffxi
ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/How-To_Guide:_Black_Mage

Here's a blackmage guide for ffxiv
ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Black_Mage_Guide
I think this should be enough to make my point.

5.The floor is lava gameplay: The game revolves around moving out of the giant telegraph circles. If you can do that while keeping up your rotations, you've beaten the game. Everything from day 1 to day100 is the exact same shit.
Replies: >>14207
No one talking about Runescape dropping on steam this week?
Replies: >>14199 >>14200
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>>14122
>runescape 3
>>14122
Its a washed up MMO with the best years far behind it, grasping for the last bit of new blood it can think to get. It was mentioned earlier in the thread if you'd just ctrl+f, even though the discussion was centered around throwback servers.
>>14104
You have obviously done 0 end game raids or ultimates if you think its just moving out of AOEs.
Replies: >>14232
>>13994
>filename
I had never heard of this game until a couple years ago.  Whenever I see people talking about it, they're usually talking about how it's dead or has its best days behind it.  Is there some kind of history of this game that I can read or watch?  I'm interested to learn what happened to it.
Replies: >>14212 >>14240
>>14209
Its not like you don't already have an endless repository of information at your fingertips.
>>14207
Yeah it gets better when you get to max level + endgame gear that's when the REAL game starts.
Replies: >>14405
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>>14209
it took me all night, but I think I found what you were looking for
>>10444
IGNORE THIS POST, IT IS MADE BY A CHINK SHILL. DFO IS SPYWARE AND PLAYS LIKE SHIT.
>>14232
I find it funny when people say the game is easy while doing ancient content with level 80 characters. Do that stuff min ilvl no echo and it becomes such a better game.
mmorpgs have poisoned the landscape of mmo.

what we need is persistent worlds, not themepark rides that might as well be singleplayer games.

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